3 phase domestic supply

[John-SJW]

I watched this vid on Youtube. Interesting. They have 3 phase supplies. Does anyone know the cost of upgrading from a single to a 3 phase domestic supply?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7wxNtrorQ&lc=UgyPTN2d89tBByfm4Dx4AaABAg.9CrcYe7x50b9CsC6DnPJKw

 

[Zerax]

It's an option on all BMW's and included if you have the business option fitted, most 5 series are bought as a company car and have this option fitted, so not rare at all IMO, and hereby lies the problem, all of your post are only your opinion most not backed up with facts, just manufacturers propaganda

You're right Mike... I completely forgot about the BMW 5 Series (with Business Option)... I should have looked at the facts. I feel such a fool. Last year they sold about 10k of them (out of 2.31 Million, being about 0.4% of all new UK car sales). So as you say, not rare at all.

 

[John-SJW]

You're right Mike... I completely forgot about the BMW 5 Series (with Business Option)... I should have looked at the facts. I feel such a fool. Last year they sold about 10k of them (out of 2.31 Million, being about 0.4% of all new UK car sales). So as you say, not rare at all.

I recall the diesel BMWs (or was it Merc) had a narrowboat central heating boiler fitted as an option in the engine bay that runs on diesel. It preheated the engine and cab of course.

These little boilers were 80% efficient. So it was worth pre-heating the engine at all times, winter and summer for economy. During warm up an engine will be doing single figures in mpg equiv - the engine is 20% efficient anyhow, so down to around 10% on warm up.

 

[nicebutdim]

During warm up an engine will be doing single figures in mpg equiv - the engine is 20% efficient anyhow, so down to around 10% on warm up.

I had always understood that petrol engines were inefficient until warmed up, but that diesel engines returned the same mpg from cold.
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Another point is that petrol engines are anywhere from 20-35% efficient, with diesel engines generally over 40% - some modern diesels are over 50% efficient. The figure of 20% is often bandied about by green lobbyists and is a worst case being presented as "fact" for all cases.

 

[John-SJW]

I read that as the metal of the engine is cold, the combustion is not at its best - the cooling system is still pumping cold water around the engine countering the warm up period - until warm there should be no water circulation ideally - electric water pumps can do this. Hence why older diesel engines blew out black smoke on start up/warm up. The efficiency may be better than petrol in the warm up, but not at its best.

Some newer engines now have the exhaust manifolds inside the cylinder head to give a faster warm up to meet emissions regs on warm up and stop-start engines. They need a slightly bigger radiator that's all.

 

[nicebutdim]

The combustion processes in diesel and petrol engines are entirely different and I would recommend reading from a wider range of sources on this subject.

It would also be worth gaining an understanding of why preheating takes place in diesel engines and the reasons why additional engine heating has traditionally been in very cold climates. It is not for reasons of efficiency.

Here's a very simple, but surprisingly concise, run down of the diesel engine. Learning about different types of combustion engines might help you understand why I'm dismissive of your point.

 

[John-SJW]

Believe me I fully understand how combustion operates in internal combustion engines. Diesel is full air, no throttle (though some rare versions do/did have a throttle), so they do not run at the ideal 14:1 stoichiometric ratio. The rattly noise is that they are too lean (too much air) at low revs/loads. When they are at 70mph on Mways they quieten down as the stoichiometric is neared or met.

When cold, diesel engines can be difficult to start because the cold mass of the metal of the cylinder block and cylinder head absorb the heat of compressed air in the cylinder, preventing ignition. Preheat the engine then this is not a problem as the metal is warm. To overcome this starting problem they use glowplugs to aid in keeping the compressed air hot in the cylinder (not lose its heat to the surrounding cold metal). If the air compressed by the piston is too cold, the fuel sprayed in to the combustion chamber by the injector will not ignite.

This is old hat technology that will be phased out soon enough for electric or hydrogen. Cruise liner operator are looking to hydrogen fuel cells to operate in the sensitive sunshine ports like Venice.
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In Westminster we have over 450 on-street electric vehicle (EV) charge points, ranging from 3kw to 22kw, with more being added to provide greater coverage for the growing number of EV owners in the City.

That is just Westminster alone. You can request to have a charger outside your home.

Electric vehicles

There are many benefits to owning an electric vehicle including free on-street parking in Westminster (when charging) and no congestion charge.

www.westminster.gov.uk

.

 

[westward10]

Electric vehicles predate petrol and diesel therefore EV is also old hat.

 

[John-SJW]

Meanwhile next door in Kensington Chelsea..

There is planned an improvement in the Source London network of on-street charging points to expand from 15 points to over 40 – and half of those new points will offer much faster charging at a rate of 22kWh (compared to the standard 7kWh rate). We think that this will greatly improve our offer to residents and address the specific point raised by Mrs Canard Moreau at the Council meeting.

Additionally, there are around 60 electric vehicle charging sockets in our lamp columns, and we plan to increase this number significantly by this spring. This will greatly increase the density of our electric vehicle charging network, and provide residents with more choice.

Finally, officers are identifying sites that might be suitable for a number of rapid (50kWh) chargers, which allow vehicles to recharge in a short period of time – again offering electric vehicle owners an additional option.

Our aim is to achieve substantial coverage of charging points within 200m across the borough.

 

[nicebutdim]

It is indeed old technology, but has incorporated many advances over the years. The core point is that diesel engine efficiency is generally at least twice that which you have claimed.

I'm not sure why someone who fully understands combustion engines would present such wildly inaccurate information.

 

[John-SJW]

Electric vehicles predate petrol and diesel therefore EV is also old hat.

Good point. But not in the current techno climate. Diesels will be outlawed in urban areas sooner than you think. London has emissions regs. Diesel hybrids were not accepted, petrol hybrids were.

I'm not sure why someone who fully understands combustion engines would present such wildly inaccurate information.

Same here.

I once worked on diesel generators in the Middle East. I got know how they worked.

 

[nicebutdim]

Meanwhile next door in Kensington Chelsea..

There is planned an improvement in the Source London network of on-street charging points to expand from 15 points to over 40 – and half of those new points will offer much faster charging at a rate of 22kWh (compared to the standard 7kWh rate). We think that this will greatly improve our offer to residents and address the specific point raised by Mrs Canard Moreau at the Council meeting.

Additionally, there are around 60 electric vehicle charging sockets in our lamp columns, and we plan to increase this number significantly by this spring. This will greatly increase the density of our electric vehicle charging network, and provide residents with more choice.

Finally, officers are identifying sites that might be suitable for a number of rapid (50kWh) chargers, which allow vehicles to recharge in a short period of time – again offering electric vehicle owners an additional option.

Our aim is to achieve substantial coverage of charging points within 200m across the borough.

People who work in the industry have repeatedly stated that existing infrastructure is insufficient to meet singnificant increases in demand. I'm not sure how copying and pasting the minutes of a London council meeting addresses that.

 

[John-SJW]

diesel engine efficiency is generally at least twice that which you have claimed.

The most they have ever got from diesel engines were in large ship's engines running at constant temperature, speed and load - a mere ~50%. That is half the fuel in the tanks is wasted.

Road vehicles is around 30% at best. Hydrogen fuel cells are running at 60% in trains in Germany right now, with zero emissions.
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People who work in the industry have repeatedly stated that existing infrastructure is insufficient to meet singnificant increases in demand. I'm not sure how copying and pasting the minutes of a London council meeting addresses that.

Name these people.
Once again. Look at the links I gave. Look at the Fully Charged vid with the National Grid man. Listen to what he says. On other vids the top man has said there is no problem in the transition.

You are spouting oil lobby propaganda. The same old stuck record for the past 10 years.

 

[nicebutdim]

The most they have ever got from diesel engines were in large ships's engines running a constant temperature, speed and load - a mere ~50%. That is half the fuel in the tanks is wasted.

Road vehicles is around 30% at best. Hydrogen fuel cells are running at 60% in trains in Germany right now.

While 30% is a significant increase on your previously claimed figure, it is most certainly not the best case for road vehicles. In actual fact, 30% would generally be regarded as the minimum expected from the least efficient diesel engines.

I'm very much in favour of the idea of hydrogen as a fuel source, but it's not yet viable for day to day use.
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Name these people.
Once again. Look at the links I gave. Look at the Fully Charged vid with the National Grid man. Listen to what he says. On other vids the top man has said there is no problem in the transition.

You are spouting oil lobby propaganda. The same old stuck record for the past 10 years.

At this point I'm done. The people I refer are those who have posted in this thread. While I do not currently work in the electrical industry, most of those posting are not only presenting cold hard facts, but cold hard facts based upon many years of experience. Does it surprise you to learn that many of those posting on an electrician's forum might actually have some knowledge of the industry?

What seems to be clear is that you came here to ask a question about an idea you had, then decided to launch into a different subject that you are passionate about. My part in this was asking some questions and countering some information that I knew to be incorrect. I'm happy for you to believe whatever you please and I have no concerns whatsoever about the sort of vehicle I'll be driving 5, 10 or 20 years from now - the only factors that will influence my decision will be those based on simple financial considerations. If an EV makes economic sense then I'll buy one, but I can assure you that my requirements and circumstances in rural Northern Ireland will be very different to those which you experience in London.

Good luck in your future campaigning endeavours.

 

[John-SJW]

Hydrogen is suitable for large transportation: ships, trains, trucks, buses, etc. Once trains take it up, the road vehicles will follow. Hydrogen can be produced by electricity overnight at train depots, so no transportation costs.

The current hybrid trains running on electric wires and diesel off the wires to Devon/Cornwall, from London, are designed to be converted to Hydrogen when the time comes.
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At this point I'm done. The people I refer are those who have posted in this thread. While I do not currently work in the electrical industry, most of those posting are not only presenting cold hard facts, but cold hard facts based upon many years of experience.

So these experts who say the the grid cannot cope are all the Sparks posting here, with nothing backing up what they wrote, while the National Grid expert (I gave the link) says the opposite. Are you serious when you write these sorts of things? LOL Are you having a laugh?

I am not campaigning. I know the technology. I know where it is heading. Again, look at the Tony Seba vid, that will tell you which way we are heading. He does not even cover flat screen TVs and how quick they spread all over the world.

With living amongst the sheep you obviously think it is not a big issue. Like 90% of us, I live in an urban area, and I do not like having vehicles pour out poisons 24/7 amongst us.

Wise up. The Sparks on here are the ultimate authority. LOL, LOL.

 

[DPG]

I still don't understand how the system is going to cope with:
Public EV chargers
Private EV chargers
The switch from gas heating and cooking to electric
The electricity needed for hydrogen production
The electricity needed for an increasing number of electric trains

Maybe the grid can cope with all this, all though I've only seen one man's confirmation that it can. But what about local infrastructure? I keep seeing suggestions of a charging point at every lamp post - do you think the distribution network and the cables can cope with this? The cables feeding lampposts weren't specced with this in mind.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for electric cars (and bikes) and we will get there, but it's important to see both sides, and the issues there may be. I've seen a lot of youtube videos and let's just say many of them skirt around some things.
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Hydrogen is suitable for large transportation: ships, trains, trucks, buses, etc. Once trains take it up, the road vehicles will follow. Hydrogen can be produced by electricity overnight at train depots, so no transportation costs.

The current hybrid trains running on electric wires and diesel off the wires to Devon/Cornwall, from London, are designed to be converted to Hydrogen when the time comes.
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So these experts who say the the grid cannot cope are all the Sparks posting here, while the National Grid expert (I gave the link) says the opposite. Are you serious when you write these sorts of things? LOL Are you having a laugh?

I am not campaigning. I know the technology. I know where it is heading. Again, look at the Tony Seba vid, that will tell you which way we are heading. He does not even cover flat screen TVs and how quick they spread all over the world.

With living amongst the sheep you obviously think it is not a big issue. Like 90% of us, I live in an urban area, and I do not like having vehicles pour out poisons 24/7 amongst us.

Wise up. The Sparks on here are the ultimate authority. LOL, LOL.

Your attitude borders on childish. And nobody had said the grid can't cope, they have said the DNO network may struggle. But you keep ignoring this.