3 phase domestic supply

[John-SJW]

I watched this vid on Youtube. Interesting. They have 3 phase supplies. Does anyone know the cost of upgrading from a single to a 3 phase domestic supply?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7wxNtrorQ&lc=UgyPTN2d89tBByfm4Dx4AaABAg.9CrcYe7x50b9CsC6DnPJKw

 

[Zerax]

The economics clearly stack up looking at all the panels on top of commercial buildings.

Wrong... the reasons why we see them on commercial buildings is mainly so that the company can say "look at us, look how much we care about the environment"

PV panels on domestics only work when there's a FIT attached. As soon as you take this out of the equation, they have a payback period of 30+ years !

At present, all this stuff about installing PV or Battery Storage or Ground Source Heat Pumps is largely of a 'hobby' type status... largely because it doesn't make any economic sense. Grid sourced electricity is still the cheapest source for domestic supply. Of course, this may change in the future, and I hope it does.
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Possibly this will be partially resolved by future advances in battery technology, but it would be difficult to resolve entirely given the huge amount of energy harnessed in such battery packs.

I'm no expert... but I seem to recall Lithium Titanate chemistry is literally bullet proof. It has other faults, like an inefficient charge cycle, but it's certainly extremely stable.
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We cannot even get broadband at decent speeds because of the infrastructure.

But that's caused by Openreach... which, even though they were privatised back in the 80's, is still run very much like a government department. I.e. hopelessly inefficient.
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The Fully Charged channel did a vid a number of years ago pointing out that one refinery alone consumed the equiv electricity of Leicester and Coventry combined.

Just a word of warning... do not believe everything you hear on Fully Charged. They obviously have an agenda that they pushing and they like to twist things to fit that agenda.

 

[UNG]

But that's caused by Openreach... which, even though they were privatised back in the 80's, is still run very much like a government department. I.e. hopelessly inefficient.

Openreach and BT are still run by the government under OFCOM's stewardship, OFCOM never take a pop at any of the other licenced comms suppliers like the do with BT and Openreach. You only have to look at the Mercury Communications debacle in the 90's BT had to allow use without payment of the telephone network until Mercury got 15% of the market, Mercury thought they still got use of the 14% without payment when they hit 15% when it was pointed out they had to pay for it all their business model fell over and they disappeared from he market.
Sky and Talk Talk do many underhanded things regarding faults and orders with Openreach so that Openreach have to pay compensation to them for not meeting performance targets, I know people in BT / Openreach so hear a lot of what goes on from the inside
Why is it never Virgin Media, Talk Talk or Sky's fault that superfast broadband isn't available in remote areas
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Just a word of warning... do not believe everything you hear on Fully Charged. They obviously have an agenda that they pushing and they like to twist things to fit that agenda.

Hard to get a balanced view from this type of site when they are promoting the biased view

 

[davesparks]

Yes, every lamp post can be a charger. Electricity is everywhere.

This shows an incredible lack of understanding, your average lamppost does not have a big enough supply for anything more than a very slow trickle charge.
Lamp posts are usually fused, as far as I know, at 6A,10A or 16A so at most they could deliver 3.5kW. That's only enough for the smallest, slowest, 3kW chargers.
That won't be available at every lamppost on a circuit either due to the application of diversity in the design.

Yes electricity is everywhere, but it isn't everywhere in large enough supplies or cable sizes.

 

[Mike Johnson]

In real world terms my pals Nissan EV was supposed to be capable of 150mile in reality only 80, will be interesting as he has just changed to a Kia who he was advised is capable of 300mile, I'm just waiting to say "I told you so"

 

[SparkyAndGeorge]

The top man at National Grid is more than likely a bean counter with no concept of delivering what is generated to the point of utilisation. It has to be understood that a lot of the local DNO infrastructure certainly in my area was installed 70 - 90 years ago so is grossly undersized in parts add to this that the DNO's diversity allows something like 3 - 5Kw per property depending on whether there is a gas supply really throws into doubt the local networks ability to cope with EV charging.
With regard to power generation AFAIK we still import electricity from France and to fill in the peaks in demand we use pumped storage generation that uses off peak generated electricity to pump the water back up the mountain so will overnight EV charging impact on this due to reducing the amount of off peak electricity available and thus altering the current generation profile

None of this takes into account most households having 2 or more vehicles which if EV's become the norm all will possibly need charging at some point overnight

This figure of 3-5Kw per property for the DNO's diversity calculations is on the generous side. It's actually more like 2.5Kw per property.

 

[UNG]

In real world terms my pals Nissan EV was supposed to be capable of 150mile in reality only 80, will be interesting as he has just changed to a Kia who he was advised is capable of 300mile, I'm just waiting to say "I told you so"

And this is the problem the EV has if the expected range figures were more transparent for different driving and climatic conditions people would possibly be more open to them but pitching a figure that it is rarely able or impossible to attain means you are buying something akin to an expensive lottery ticket with a changing outcome due to the prevailing climatic conditions
Will EV's ever be as convenient as an ICE vehicle remains to be seen to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

 

[DPG]

John, can I ask if you have any financial/corporate interest in EV cars and/or chargers? You seem very biased towards them and seem to be ignoring a lot of the questions/points people are making. You also seem to have limited knowledge regarding the UK electrical infrastructure and capabilities.

Not sure if you answered this in the end, but how many charge points are there in the UK compared to petrol pumps? NOT petrol stations.

 

[plugsandsparks]

And this is the problem the EV has if the expected range figures were more transparent for different driving and climatic conditions people would possibly be more open to them but pitching a figure that it is rarely able or impossible to attain means you are buying something akin to an expensive lottery ticket with a changing outcome due to the prevailing climatic conditions
Will EV's ever be as convenient as an ICE vehicle remains to be seen to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

Its possible, judging by the recent lab developments but the amount of power consumed by an EV is pretty fixed, largely by Newton. So this means to charge quickly for our convenience requires charging at over 250KW, most commercial buildings dont have that to hand so this means building specific charging stations (Super Chargers) that charge DC straight to the battery pack. As mentioned, i have looked into it and as you can imagine the A/C to D/C convertors at that power level are not trivial. Its the equivalent of the "elephant in the room" dont mention it and no one will notice....

 

[Mike Johnson]

John, can I ask if you have any financial/corporate interest in EV cars and/or chargers? You seem very biased towards them and seem to be ignoring a lot of the questions/points people are making. You also seem to have limited knowledge regarding the UK electrical infrastructure and capabilities.

Not sure if you answered this in the end, but how many charge points are there in the UK compared to petrol pumps? NOT petrol stations.

His profile says: Manufacturer / Distributor / Supplier / Inventor - etc

 

[ChipFanDave]

Lets not forget that the intention to remove or remodel natural gas into domestic properties for heating and cooking will significantly effect the demand profile for domestic customers.

 

[Mike Johnson]

Lets not forget that the intention to remove or remodel natural gas into domestic properties for heating and cooking will significantly effect the demand profile for domestic customers.

I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

 

[ferg]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make?

It's still early, have another coffee and try again.

 

[John-SJW]

to fill a tank with fuel takes around 5 minutes will we be able to "refuel" a battery in 5 minutes in years to come without degrading it's performance and longevity too much

I tend to have a long wait to get to a pump, then a long wait to pay. I would say half an hour. Some EVs will soon recharge the lot in 15 mins. But as it will not be fully flat more like 5 to 10 mins. If charged at home, it fills the tank overnight while in bed.
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John, can I ask if you have any financial/corporate interest in EV cars and/or chargers? You seem very biased towards them and seem to be ignoring a lot of the questions/points people are making.

I have followed the progress of zero emissions cars for many years. I do analysis, being a graduate engineer. That is how we assess matters. I have addressed all points put forward. Most points given are people just no knowing, with others reciting oil company propaganda and myths.

Most were answered in the links I gave. The links many never looked at but then typed complete nonsense thinking they knew all the answers. Many asked question which can be answered by a quick Google. Many dismissed the links rejecting the content, unable to accept that what they have been thinking for years is wrong.

I have no interests in EVs, batteries, etc.

This thread started off regarding supplies, home batteries, etc, I never pushed it over to an EV thread, in fact attempting to get it on track. The battery technology is being pushed by EVs. The more they improve, the better for homes.

HMG is looking at banning the sale of new fossil fuel burning cars in ten years, bringing it forward 5 years. I never made it up, I gave the link.

 

[DPG]

I tend to have a long wait to get to a pump, then a long wait to pay. I would say half an hour. Some EVs will soon recharge the lot in 15 mins. But as it will not be fully flat more like 5 to 10 mins. If charged at home, it fills the tank overnight while in bed.
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I have followed the progress of zero emissions cars for many years. I do analysis, being a graduate engineer. That is how we assess matters. I have addressed all points put forward. Most points given are people just no knowing, with others reciting oil company propaganda and myths.

Most were answered in the links I gave. The links many never looked at but then typed complete nonsense thinking they knew all the answers. Many asked question which can be answered by a quick Google. Many dismissed the links rejecting the content, unable to accept that what they have been thinking for years is wrong.

I have no interests in EVs, batteries, etc.

This thread started off regarding supplies, home batteries, etc, I never pushed it over to an EV thread, in fact attempting to get it on track. The battery technology is being pushed by EVs. The more they improve, the better for homes.

HMG is looking at banning the sale of new fossil fuel burning cars in ten years, bringing it forward 5 years. I never made it up, I gave the link.

So did you answer the question about pumps/charge point numbers?

 

[Zerax]

In real world terms my pals Nissan EV was supposed to be capable of 150mile in reality only 80, will be interesting as he has just changed to a Kia who he was advised is capable of 300mile, I'm just waiting to say "I told you so"

I'm sure your pal is a sensible chap and realises that 'capable' means 'best case'... rather than what he'll achieve with his style of driving. I think that for a car company to provide a bespoke mileage figure for your driving style and all ranges of ambient temperature is impractical.

As to his new car... he obviously likes EVs as he's bought another one. Should he achieve the same sort of relative range, he'll still be getting about 160 miles. At average UK road speeds, that must be pushing 3hrs of driving... which for me (others may be fine with it) is too far without a break anyway.

For me (others will vary) I do on average about 25 miles a day... with the occasional (like twice a year) longer trip. So EV range is not an issue for me.