4KW Sytem Quote Required

[SRE]

I quite like SAP our systems always out perform them and our customers are delighted - works for me, even though I back up with PVSOL I'm becoming less inclined to do so the lower the margins get.

 

[SolarCity]

While I do agree with Gavin that SAP is utterly useless, and almost any other method will provide more accurate results, it is part of the MCS rules for a reason. When two firms are quoting for a job, it should allow a level playing field.

I offer PV SOL calculations as well - but as per MCS rules, I don't give them any more weight than the SAP calculation.

 

[infinity]

So you don't have to pay for phones, marketing, bank charges, insurance, heating, lighting, trade body registration, mileage, accountant, admin, structural surveys, a basic salary? I don't understand how you can't have any overheads. I work from home and mine are significant and we're a 2 man band subbing to roof contractors and scaffolders.

I'd rather have a job and let someone else have the hassle than work for those sort of wages. How can you cover the cost of a broken panel? I guess if you're bashing in one job a day you could maybe get there over a sustained period but no-one I know is doing anything like that or can install one 4kwp job a day. IMHO the greatest mistake that small businesses make is underestimating their overheads - "it doesn't cost much because we work from home".

As others have said it's a race to the bottom - I'd rather make the same money from one job as from 3 and know that I'm here in the future to deal with any issues and the job has been done properly, without having a heart attack

Of course i have those overheads, how much does the MCS cost you per year on top of electrical contracting? Its not a lot, when you consider how much an electrician can charge for a days/ weeks work being self employed, why would the solar work need to be so inflated to cover overheads?

It all depends how much you would consider a good profit per job. I know if i charge £1000 more i will not win the work, and thats where the real cost lies, no business.


I also do not have to split the profit as the other guy works for me and only gets a day rate. Which probably makes a big difference.

Im not sure about the 2 day part, if the roofers cannot install 4KW on concrete tiles in a day i would find another roofer.
Likewise for the electrician, its pretty simple work for any qualified electrician as long as their are no significant challenges in the job its easily a days work and completed certification when you get home.

As for scaffolding Moggy not sure how much you pay but i pay £300 pretty much every job so not a considerable outlay.

 

[moggy1968]

double that for scaffold round here. MCS costs are around double that of general electrical business, which, incidently, I have pulled away from now in favour of other work because I couldn't make a sensible living for the ridiculous hours I was working. Insurance is double, mainly because of working at height, inspection is double, tools are significantly more expensive (put solar on the description and charge 2-3 times as much!). Each job requires a day of admin in total, which electrical work doesn't, so another days pay to cover.
I reckon even at my prices I need 6 installs a year to make it worth the hassle and cost, and on current install figures that looks doubtful. drop my margins to your prices, where I am actually working at a loss and relying on the difference in VAT to make a profit, and it looks pretty pants!

 

[jupestar]

When two firms are quoting for a job, it should allow a level playing field.

What it also does is imply that any one system is the same as another as installations all produce the same!! and encourage the market to install the cheapest. My brother-in-law who installs in Germany, is amazed by the utter tat we install over here, and this has been created by MCS (and SAP) levelling the playng field. to the customer, the MCS gives confidence that the installer is capable, and the panel is high quality.

 

[Gavin A]

When two firms are quoting for a job, it should allow a level playing field.

as above, why should a firm offering very basic panels and inverters be able to predict the same output as a well matched sanyo system + 4000TL?

Now, a sanyo + 4000TL may only produce something like 5-8% more than bog standard panels + standard isolating transformer inverter, but that still deserves to be factored in to the calculations if the customer is to be able to make an informed decision.

That's not a level playing field, it's a playing field that's significantly biased against higher spec more efficient systems,

 

[Energetic]

One thing that doesn't get mentioned here much is that every system you have out there under warranty is a libility. These things do go wrong from time to time and the likelyhood of things going wrong increases with the cheaper end products. There comes a point where the liablity of the warranty is not worth what we are making...

 

[babba]

One thing that doesn't get mentioned here much is that every system you have out there under warranty is a libility. These things do go wrong from time to time and the likelyhood of things going wrong increases with the cheaper end products. There comes a point where the liablity of the warranty is not worth what we are making...

You will find most of the cowboys only think of the quick buck here today gone tomorrow and the customers who buy it, buy on greed for a better return. Problem is its a 25 year investement not a 10 year. Dont you just love when a small company become sole distributors for wangchi pv panels, I see lots of trips to far flung places, for replacment panels cause the companys gone bang.

As the old saying goes a fool and their money is easly parted.

 

[SolarCity]

as above, why should a firm offering very basic panels and inverters be able to predict the same output as a well matched sanyo system + 4000TL?

Now, a sanyo + 4000TL may only produce something like 5-8% more than bog standard panels + standard isolating transformer inverter, but that still deserves to be factored in to the calculations if the customer is to be able to make an informed decision.

That's not a level playing field, it's a playing field that's significantly biased against higher spec more efficient systems,

True, and this kind of system would suit me much better seeing as I spend so much time configuring systems on PV Sol Expert. However, we all know how unscrupulous some people are. If a firm turns up and says "My panels will produce 4,900kWh", yet they are still offering the cheapest stuff on the market, who is to say he is wrong? It is still only a prediction.

Obviously you and I and some others have a pretty good model for predicting yield, but not everyone has. We're also both ethical installers, and not everyone is.

I think the standard calculations are necessary BUT they do need vastly improving.

 

[finchy]

I lost a job because I use scaffolding and I didn't break down my price so gave the customer little room to negoitate. Hmmm your overheads charge ... can I have a breakdown ....! Looking at in now I'm pleased I didn't get the job more fool the installer who did....they certainly won't be here in a years time ( drive them selfs to destruction ) ...

 

[finchy]

How hard is it for MSC to have their own model based on regional statistics. Problem solved with a level playing field .....

 

[sedgy34]

I lost a job because I use scaffolding and I didn't break down my price so gave the customer little room to negoitate. Hmmm your overheads charge ... can I have a breakdown ....! Looking at in now I'm pleased I didn't get the job more fool the installer who did....they certainly won't be here in a years time ( drive them selfs to destruction ) ...

Now prices are lower you have people who can just about get 7k together for a 4kw system they shop about and it's the different company's who start cutting there costs to get the job cause everyone is quiet.

 

[Earthstore]

MCS rules, you can only discount/drop your price by £200 max.

So who has been pulled up on this one?

 

[Ian-LS]

MCS rules, you can only discount/drop your price by £200 max.

So who has been pulled up on this one?

I thought that was REAL Assurance comsumer code that stated this

 

[Gavin A]

MCS rules, you can only discount/drop your price by £200 max.

So who has been pulled up on this one?

That's REAL rules, and IIRC you are allowed to reduce your price by more than that if there's justification for it.

For instance, if the panel prices have dropped significantly between the original quote and being asked for a reduction, or if the scaffolding's not as complex as you thought, or the job turns out to be simpler than you originally thought etc.