ELECSA Certification Scheme A message to all Elecsa registered electricians!! A must read!!

[TaffyDuck]

A copy of a letter sent to ESR

Dear Sir

I have been a member of Elecsa since 2006.

In that time I have had approved contractor applied to my business name.

It would seem however that I have been demoted as it were to Domestic Installer on the new ESR. A title which is an entirely NICEIC invention.

I have been assured by Elecsa that this new venture called the ElectricSafe Register would be a benefit to my business.



It would seem however that myself, and all other Elecsa Part P Approved contractors have been sold a pup so to speak.

Perhaps you could explain why our Approved contractor status has been removed despite assurances to the contrary from Elecsa.

Yours sincerely

 

[Welchyboy]

Hasn't Elecsa always been a domestic installations/part P scheme ?? Your only assessed on domestic work so why would they give you any further accreditations on something thats out of their scope

If you dont want to be classed as a domestic installer why dont you man-up and a apply for ECA or NIC approved schemes

 

[TaffyDuck]

Hasn't Elecsa always been a domestic installations/part P scheme ?? Your only assessed on domestic work so why would they give you any further accreditations on something thats out of their scope

If you dont want to be classed as a domestic installer why dont you man-up and a apply for ECA or NIC approved schemes

Man-up?

I am a highly qualified and very experienced electrician who has been, through business necessity, dragged into these get rich quick schemes. I don`t need to prove anything to anyone.

Least of all you.

I was told at my last assessment that I couldn`t show an industrial 3-phase installation as it wasn`t domestic. Now I`m told that I am a domestic installer even though a fair proportion of my work is commercial/ light industrial.

I will probably now, if this register becomes the "definitive search" as is planned need to do just as you suggest and re-join the NIC ( Where I was an approved contractor until 2005). This will have the effect of costing me even more money, surprise surprise.

The ECA have been duped by the NIC AGAIN.

 

[TaffyDuck]

And incidentally if you think the NIC approved scheme is anything more than a coffee drinking exercise you are badly informed. I`ve done both those and Part P assessments many times and its nowt more than a way to part you from your cash.

 

[Welchyboy]

And incidentally if you think the NIC approved scheme is anything more than a coffee drinking exercise you are badly informed. I`ve done both those and Part P assessments many times and its nowt more than a way to part you from your cash.

Obviously touching on a raw nerve there

I can't remember at what point I questioned your competence? , I was enquiring why your throwing your toys out of your prams because you joined a domestic electrical installation competant person scheme then wonder why they state domestic installer???????????

 

[Simlec]

I can't remember seeing from the last time I looked in the BGB or doc part P where it stated "domestic installer"
Elecsa allowed members to self certify work in a domestic environment, not make members become a "domestic installer"

 

[AP Electrical]

Could see this coming so I went for the free transfer to nic a few weeks ago with a view to going approved contractor, can't see any point staying with elecsa as there promotion to the public is terrible and this di is the nail in the coffin for me.

 

[D Skelton]

Hasn't Elecsa always been a domestic installations/part P scheme ?? Your only assessed on domestic work so why would they give you any further accreditations on something thats out of their scope

No, it has always been a scheme that has approved electricians (whatever their level of ability) to self certify work in domestic dwellings under Part P of the building regulations. A lot of my work is commercial/industrial, therefore I am not a domestic installer, however as stated above, I am approved to self certify in domestic dwellings under Part P.

If you dont want to be classed as a domestic installer why dont you man-up and a apply for ECA or NIC approved schemes

You obviously haven't read through the entire thread and read all relevant responses. Please do this before you come on here with your ill informed, arrogant, high and mighty attitude.

If I'm wrong however and indeed you have read through the entire thread, well, this is about the time where I stop taking anything you have to say seriously!

 

[MDJ]

Perhaps you could explain why our Approved contractor status has been removed despite assurances to the contrary from Elecsa.

Good last point, I would love to see their reply, that will shake them, however they will have excuses and answers ready for any questions thrown at them I bet, good post though.

 

[D Skelton]

Elecsa have now replied to my original message. Do have a read below :



Dear Mr Skelton,

Thank you for your email and for the valid points that you have raised. ELECSA is pleased to be part of the Electrical Safety Register and see this as an important first step to joining up the industry. As such the creation of the Electrical Safety Register website is just the first step in communicating to all consumers, clients and specifiers of the value of using registered contractors. It will continue to develop and evolve as the promotion of the Register gets underway. There are many changes that will be made to the website as a result of feedback received since making the site live and in particular your points about how contractors are presented will be an important part of those changes. What I can't assure you of at this time is exactly when these changes will be made however, all future developments and improvements to the Electrical Safety Register will be communicated to all ELECSA contractors via the usual communication channels (email, website and SPARK).

At ELECSA we do value all of our contractors and do strive to provide a high level of customer service and this attention to our contractors needs will continue. I am sorry if you feel that we have not satisfactorily maintained these standards whilst we were establishing the partnership that has created the Electrical Safety Register but I can assure you that all feedback received is being put into the future development plans of the register for the benefit of all of our contractors.

Kindest regards,

*** ***



Now the response I sent today to that rubbish:




Dear ***

This is simply not good enough! I deserve more than just a generic copied and pasted response to a highly important enquiry!

Begrudgingly I pay silly amounts of money every year to a scheme that does absolutely nothing for me, we as electrical contractors all know the con that is the requirement under Part P to sign up to corporate scamsters like yourselves but that argument is for another day! The very least you could have done, considering the sheer amount of MY money that I unwillingly hand over to you each year, would have been to consult your customers, ie. me! But where was this consultation? Where was my say in how you choose to let me be represented?

You talk of many changes being made as a result of feedback recieved, but is this just another way of saying "Yeah yeah, we'll pretend we're listening", and then dumping my concerns down the memory hole?

I made my concerns very clear in my first email to Elecsa, these concerns are that your decision to let the NICEIC handle our details is now going to affect my business! It is affecting my business as I write this! Something which you have claimed numurous times will not happen. Letting my business be defined as a 'Domestic Installer' cannot and will not continue!

I don't wish to hear weak excuses for your actions. I don't wish to hear "Yeah we'll get round to sorting something out at some point but who knows when?". If these matters are not addressed NOW, I will be considering taking legal advice.

Ms ***, I mean this with no disrespect but if these matters are above your pay grade, I would advise you to forward both my emails on to someone who can actually enter into some form of dialogue with me regarding these matters.

Kind regards,

 

[Danspark]

D Skelton

ELECSA is a competent person scheme for undertaking work within a domestic dwelling!


“I don't want is Elecsa telling my customers that I'm a 'Domestic Installer', because all that says to them is that I only carry out work in the domestic sector.” No it doesn’t. that is how you see it. Sorry D Skelton, You ARE a domestic installer. (you can still do work in the commercial and industrial sector, you simply haven't joined a voluptuary regulatory body ie: as a NICEIC's approved contractor) That is why you signed up to ELECSA’s competent person scheme. You are very attached to to the approved contractor status that was given to you by the ELECSA. But now that you are on a list that has other accreditations for other electrical companies it makes sense that your approval by elecsa is not to be confused with an existing accreditation that you are NOT! anyways, why be attached to such a “made up name” by a company that you detest? why not try some other made up names, hows about; accepted contractor, agreed contractor, standard contractor, established contractor, confirmed contractor, acknowledged contractor, recognized contractor, sanctioned contractor agreed contractor...


*assumption made that a difference in opinion is ok? I know how passionate you can be

 

[Danspark]

Thought I'd try some emoticons to try and get ezzekiel's interest back up. (ill stick some at the bottom too)

resents1: :93: :drool5:


Des 56


“The QS system has been made the basis for Niceic companies to operate in the Domestic sector
A sole trader domestic installer is deemed to be the Qualifying supervisor of his own company,he is accepted into the Niceic with the bare minimum or sometimes no electrical qualification, other than perhaps the current edition of IEE regulations” Qualified Supervisor: The minimum technical qualification required is City and Guilds 2382 level or equivalent - Where the proposed Qualified Supervisor does not hold the required qualification, the business will be registered with Conditional Registration. It is a requirement of Conditional Registration that the Qualified Supervisor obtains the qualification and provides evidence to NICEIC Head Office within 12 months of the date of registration. It is the Government that have relaxed the requirement for the proposed Qualified Supervisor to hold the technical qualification before registration is granted to the business! However, NICEIC believes that without a relevant qualification it is unlikely the proposed Qualified Supervisor will be able to demonstrate the required level of competence at the assessment visit.


“So we have many enterprises with a QS and very little if any electrical training,” If he has no or very little training how does he then demonstrate competence in domestic electrical installations and that the design is appropriate and they are competently installed in accordance with BS 7671: 2008. The ability to inspect and test domestic electrical installation work including a check to confirm that other appropriate parts of the Building Regulations are being adhered to. In addition he must be directly engaged in domestic electrical installation work and have experience of completing this type of work for 12 months. I trust you are not belittling the skills required to demonstrating this!

“perhaps the current edition of IEE regulations” and IEE On-site Guide, Memorandum of Guidance on the Electricity at Work Regulations 1989 and Approved Document P.


Most of your other comments are nothing more than propaganda! (this one in bold means im shouting at you)


I now want to take your attention back to my original posting. “Part P was the best thing to happen to the industry” why... BECAUSE THINGS HAVE IMPROVED! Today I went to install 4 spots in a bathroom ceiling, this was requested by a plumber that 7 years ago would have done it himself. I did it, and the customer seemed happy knowing (for reasons he doesn’t understand) that a 6mm earth cable bonding his incoming gas and water services have been removed and that a 10mm earth cable installed. He was very pleased. he even has just the folder to put the certificate in. Has any one experienced a situation where someone has stated “i would never have touched the electrics, but now that it would be illegal to do so I think i’ll hive it ago”? no... so, THINGS HAVE IMPROVED! no matter how small.


I have never suggested that Part P is perfect, far from it. I want it to be amended sensibly, I want non registered companies to be forced into compliance. I want more enforcement from local authorities regarding non compliance and more publicity from the government!



:90: :41: :74:

still with us ezzekiel?

 

[Geoffsd]

the customer seemed happy knowing (for reasons he doesn’t understand) that a 6mm earth cable bonding his incoming gas and water services have been removed and that a 10mm earth cable installed.

It's not earth cable.

Was it necessary?

 

[DJ Ovengloves]

Probably best you don't threaten legal action with an email that is libelous itself (you can't go around calling companies "corporate scamsters"), really you can't.

As for your "pay grade" quip, what did you expect to get from that?

Additional:-

Take a breath and write down on paper on what it means to your company and what the knock-on effects are, I'd then put that in an "emotion free" email and send it to the CEO of Elecsa. Your have much more chance of changing something getting under his / her hooter than insulting some poor bint on the front-line.

If that doesn't work, walk with your wallet!

Elecsa have now replied to my original message. Do have a read below :



Dear Mr Skelton,

Thank you for your email and for the valid points that you have raised. ELECSA is pleased to be part of the Electrical Safety Register and see this as an important first step to joining up the industry. As such the creation of the Electrical Safety Register website is just the first step in communicating to all consumers, clients and specifiers of the value of using registered contractors. It will continue to develop and evolve as the promotion of the Register gets underway. There are many changes that will be made to the website as a result of feedback received since making the site live and in particular your points about how contractors are presented will be an important part of those changes. What I can't assure you of at this time is exactly when these changes will be made however, all future developments and improvements to the Electrical Safety Register will be communicated to all ELECSA contractors via the usual communication channels (email, website and SPARK).

At ELECSA we do value all of our contractors and do strive to provide a high level of customer service and this attention to our contractors needs will continue. I am sorry if you feel that we have not satisfactorily maintained these standards whilst we were establishing the partnership that has created the Electrical Safety Register but I can assure you that all feedback received is being put into the future development plans of the register for the benefit of all of our contractors.

Kindest regards,

*** ***



Now the response I sent today to that rubbish:




Dear ***

This is simply not good enough! I deserve more than just a generic copied and pasted response to a highly important enquiry!

Begrudgingly I pay silly amounts of money every year to a scheme that does absolutely nothing for me, we as electrical contractors all know the con that is the requirement under Part P to sign up to corporate scamsters like yourselves but that argument is for another day! The very least you could have done, considering the sheer amount of MY money that I unwillingly hand over to you each year, would have been to consult your customers, ie. me! But where was this consultation? Where was my say in how you choose to let me be represented?

You talk of many changes being made as a result of feedback recieved, but is this just another way of saying "Yeah yeah, we'll pretend we're listening", and then dumping my concerns down the memory hole?

I made my concerns very clear in my first email to Elecsa, these concerns are that your decision to let the NICEIC handle our details is now going to affect my business! It is affecting my business as I write this! Something which you have claimed numurous times will not happen. Letting my business be defined as a 'Domestic Installer' cannot and will not continue!

I don't wish to hear weak excuses for your actions. I don't wish to hear "Yeah we'll get round to sorting something out at some point but who knows when?". If these matters are not addressed NOW, I will be considering taking legal advice.

Ms ***, I mean this with no disrespect but if these matters are above your pay grade, I would advise you to forward both my emails on to someone who can actually enter into some form of dialogue with me regarding these matters.

Kind regards,

 

[D Skelton]

ELECSA is a competent person scheme for undertaking work within a domestic dwelling!

No, ELECSA is a government recognised self certification scheme for approval of electricians under Part P of the Building Regulations to self certify their work in domestic dwellings.

“I don't want is Elecsa telling my customers that I'm a 'Domestic Installer', because all that says to them is that I only carry out work in the domestic sector.” No it doesn’t. that is how you see it.

Yes it does! It is very clearly implied to anyone who doesn't have any knowledge of Part P or Building Regulations.

Sorry D Skelton, You ARE a domestic installer.

No I'm not, I'm approved by a government recognised scheme to self certify work in domestic dwellings.

(you can still do work in the commercial and industrial sector, you simply haven't joined a voluptuary regulatory body ie: as a NICEIC's approved contractor) That is why you signed up to ELECSA’s competent person scheme. You are very attached to to the approved contractor status that was given to you by the ELECSA. But now that you are on a list that has other accreditations for other electrical companies it makes sense that your approval by elecsa is not to be confused with an existing accreditation that you are NOT!

I am approved by a government recognised scheme (ELECSA) to self certify work in domestic dwellings. Therefore I am an ELECSA approved contractor. If you were approved by the NIC to self certify work in domestic dwellings, whether or not they choose to brand you a 'Domestic Installer', you are still an NICEIC approved contractor under Part P of the BRs!

anyways, why be attached to such a “made up name” by a company that you detest? why not try some other made up names, hows about; accepted contractor, agreed contractor, standard contractor, established contractor, confirmed contractor, acknowledged contractor, recognized contractor, sanctioned contractor agreed contractor...

If they want to call me any of the above, I couldn't give a hoot, because none of those imply in the slightest that I only carry out domestic electrical installation work. It's as simple as that!