Chasing cable in a ceiling

[Gigsy]

By law, the homeowner or landlord must be able to prove that all electrical installation work meets Part P, or they will be committing a criminal offence.

What law? Where does it say that. If there is such a law, what legislation is it written in? As we have already discussed part P simply states an installation must not cause fire or electricuation. How do you propose this can be proved by the homeowner. You are spreading more electricians --------.

 

[Gigsy]

Ah so DIY in your own home is ok regardless of regs etc. Ok got that.

Why do you say things that are not correct.The buildings regulations do apply to DIY'ers

 

[Toneyz]

As far as I know there are noggins on all approaches, I don't have access from all sides to find out. The 150mm "permitted cable route" tip has given me an idea that may work, I may be able to put the light off center if i come across one of the walls, before one of the noggins. So I can run cable 15cm down from the ceiling across a wall, even if it does not go to an appliance , is that right?

It needs to be within the 150mm zone

 

[Diddy]

If you want to know if it will work and will it kill you/anyone then the answer is yes it will work and in all probability nobody will die. It does come down to it's your house so do as you wish within our laws. If the law declares that you can amend or extend a simple circuit without any notification then that's it - end of story. Are there potential issues ? YES there are and they have been described to the op.
Where would/could any issues arise - well lets just say you had worked on the circuit and a fire developed in connection with that circuit - NOT necessarily YOUR work - After fire officer declares electrical fault on downstairs lighting circuit your insurance are going to ask for most recent eicr - they may even order an investigation by a qualified "expert" and discover that their had been DIY additions - THEN they would just say - sorry no pay....one unhappy op - All very exaggerated but nothing that has not happened before in some shape or form.
That is 1 scenario of bad news as if you decided to take insurance company to court they would then refer to statutory documents as well as non statutory documents that are referred to in the statutory documents (AKA BS7671)....this is where your interpretation of these documents would be ultimately tested and in most of the professional opinion on here your interpretation would fall short of the intention of these documents.
Now all of the above are concerning cash - if there was loss of life then im afraid the above would happen in a very different court and with more serious outcomes at steak.
At the and of the day all of that is far fetched - but those regulations are essentially there to ensure safety to people,property and livestock - if anybody falls short of these obligations then they open themselves to a load of trouble and a great sob story.

 

[Gigsy]

If you want to know if it will work and will it kill you/anyone then the answer is yes it will work and in all probability nobody will die. It does come down to it's your house so do as you wish within our laws. If the law declares that you can amend or extend a simple circuit without any notification then that's it - end of story. Are there potential issues ? YES there are and they have been described to the op.
Where would/could any issues arise - well lets just say you had worked on the circuit and a fire developed in connection with that circuit - NOT necessarily YOUR work - After fire officer declares electrical fault on downstairs lighting circuit your insurance are going to ask for most recent eicr - they may even order an investigation by a qualified "expert" and discover that their had been DIY additions - THEN they would just say - sorry no pay....one unhappy op - All very exaggerated but nothing that has not happened before in some shape or form.
That is 1 scenario of bad news as if you decided to take insurance company to court they would then refer to statutory documents as well as non statutory documents that are referred to in the statutory documents (AKA BS7671)....this is where your interpretation of these documents would be ultimately tested and in most of the professional opinion on here your interpretation would fall short of the intention of these documents.
Now all of the above are concerning cash - if there was loss of life then im afraid the above would happen in a very different court and with more serious outcomes at steak.
At the and of the day all of that is far fetched - but those regulations are essentially there to ensure safety to people,property and livestock - if anybody falls short of these obligations then they open themselves to a load of trouble and a great sob story.

BS7671 are not referred to in any statutory document, if ou disagree please post a reference to said document.
This is exactly why I asked if I was breaking any regulations and from what I have read on here from you experts, there is not one regulation that I would have broken.
I have now changed the wiring, I bought a long drill bit and drilled in the middle of the joists from below.

 

[Diddy]

Ok here is some light reading for you. As I said Bs7671 is referred to often in court to show compliance or non compliance with the EAW act 1989....Which IS an act of parliament which IS therefore a law. Go and check with the guys who write the rules over at the iet forums. They have had this very discussion in depth so you can see the outcome of debates from over the years on there too.
At the end of the day many of us may not agree with interpretations of regulations and even weather something is legal or not. We can only offer professional opinion...which is what you originally sought. Now you can and have challenged us over our view over the job posted...You are getting a "free" opinion from professionals who's business it is to stay abreast of these regulations day in day out all of our working lives.
Now I have no idea what you do for a living but how would you feel if I asked you about a different way of doing your job and you told me I was wrong...that this is not the correct way to do it because of XYZ...how would you feel with my limited experience of your job that I then tell you that your free advice is wrong and that you are looking at your job all wrong.....Does that come across as a well thought out plan to you ?
As I say the IET discuss the regulations for breakfast lunch and supper.....they may even quote other regulations and the relevant "law tree" that "could" be used against you in court.

 

[westward10]

Well done for altering it. The problem here, if it was a problem in the first place is that BS7671 doesn't refer to zones across ceilings, or floors for that matter is because it is not an expected route to be taken and hence there is no reason to refer to it. I for one found it quite entertaining, no offence.

 

[westward10]

Ok here is some light reading for you. As I said Bs7671 is referred to often in court to show compliance or non compliance with the EAW act 1989....Which IS an act of parliament which IS therefore a law. Go and check with the guys who write the rules over at the iet forums. They have had this very discussion in depth so you can see the outcome of debates from over the years on there too.
At the end of the day many of us may not agree with interpretations of regulations and even weather something is legal or not. We can only offer professional opinion...which is what you originally sought. Now you can and have challenged us over our view over the job posted...You are getting a "free" opinion from professionals who's business it is to stay abreast of these regulations day in day out all of our working lives.
Now I have no idea what you do for a living but how would you feel if I asked you about a different way of doing your job and you told me I was wrong...that this is not the correct way to do it because of XYZ...how would you feel with my limited experience of your job that I then tell you that your free advice is wrong and that you are looking at your job all wrong.....Does that come across as a well thought out plan to you ?
As I say the IET discuss the regulations for breakfast lunch and supper.....they may even quote other regulations and the relevant "law tree" that "could" be used against you in court.

No one is taking him to court and the E&WR don't apply to him, he asked for advise, got it and is changing the method he has used.

 

[Gigsy]

Ok here is some light reading for you. As I said Bs7671 is referred to often in court to show compliance or non compliance with the EAW act 1989....Which IS an act of parliament which IS therefore a law. Go and check with the guys who write the rules over at the iet forums. They have had this very discussion in depth so you can see the outcome of debates from over the years on there too.
At the end of the day many of us may not agree with interpretations of regulations and even weather something is legal or not. We can only offer professional opinion...which is what you originally sought. Now you can and have challenged us over our view over the job posted...You are getting a "free" opinion from professionals who's business it is to stay abreast of these regulations day in day out all of our working lives.
Now I have no idea what you do for a living but how would you feel if I asked you about a different way of doing your job and you told me I was wrong...that this is not the correct way to do it because of XYZ...how would you feel with my limited experience of your job that I then tell you that your free advice is wrong and that you are looking at your job all wrong.....Does that come across as a well thought out plan to you ?
As I say the IET discuss the regulations for breakfast lunch and supper.....they may even quote other regulations and the relevant "law tree" that "could" be used against you in court.

I value all of your advice, I changed the circuit in accordance with the advice given in this forum. Thank you all for your valuable advice.
I do not know what objections you had regarding my original plan? The regulations people stated my original plan was contravening had no relevance to my design, but I changed it anyway.

In regard to the law and BS7671 and the electricity at work act. The electricity at work act does not apply as the work was done in my home, and so long as my design is safe there is not a lawyer in the land that can touch me, regardless of anything in BS7671. If however I designed a dangerous circuit, then yes it could be proved my design was dangerous by quoting the regulations in BS7671.

 

[Gigsy]

I think the problem with electricians is that they think they are the only people who are capable of reading and understanding BS7671. Maybe it is because they had difficulty understanding the regulations and needed them explaining to them is the reason they do not think other people are capable of understanding them. Jo Bloggs is perfectly entitled to design and install alterations and additions to a circuit, and can quite easily design and install a circuit safely armed with a copy of the on-site guide. Electricity is not difficult to understand. It is not difficult to put a wire in a hole and tighten the screw!

 

[westward10]

Quit while you are ahead

 

[Pat H]

And if a DIYer gets it wrong and a family member or guest is injured or worse?
Or as is often the case a fire is caused. Then explaining to the inurance company becomes an issue.

I can drive down the motorway with my eyes closed. As long as I don't hit anyone alls well.

 

[westward10]

I would leave it Pat, I have actually tried to defend his actions in light of people throwing laws etc at him and he has changed what he has done but he will do this till the cows come home.

 

[Gigsy]

Well done for altering it. The problem here, if it was a problem in the first place is that BS7671 doesn't refer to zones across ceilings, or floors for that matter is because it is not an expected route to be taken and hence there is no reason to refer to it. I for one found it quite entertaining, no offence.

And if a DIYer gets it wrong and a family member or guest is injured or worse?
Or as is often the case a fire is caused. Then explaining to the inurance company becomes an issue.

I can drive down the motorway with my eyes closed. As long as I don't hit anyone alls well.

The same applies to if an electrician gets it wrong, then they cause a fire or kill someone. Like I said it is not difficult to understand, it is very hard to get it wrong. Everything is standardised, all the hard work has been done for us and is all there for everyone to read in the on site guide!

 

[westward10]

Go to bed.