DIY enthusiasts and electrical work.

[Pete999]

Probably a well thought and commonly discussed subject. I know the Forum has a DIY section, and has a policy of not offering step by step advice on how to do various electrical work, a good policy in my book, and I think many, if not all Electricians would agree with.

However this policy does not deter many DIYers and people who think they are Electricians from asking questions in very suspicious ways on "how do I do this that or the other, or I have been to B&Q and bought this and that, how would you do so and so.

It's difficult at times to explain to these people, that it's a dangerous thing to try and help without being off hand, and sometimes, when they won't or can't understand why you are reluctant to help, why won't you help the Guy in B&Q sold me this stuff and said it was easy as he was an Electrician because he had done a meaningless course, and he is now qualified as an Electrician.

With all the hype of Part P etc, do you not think the problem lies with the Government, the CPSchemes or who, I do realist that the likes of B&Q, Srewfix etc are a Godsend on a weekend or Bank Holiday when someone calls you up with a problem, and these are just a couple of outlets whereby you can get materials at short notice.

Where do you think the answer lies? should there be a ban on outlets like the two I have mentioned from selling electrical installation products to the public, should these outlets Police the selling of these products to qualified people, restrict selling this gear to the Trade areas, it would be interesting to share your thoughts, without prejudice, and I do realise this subject has been through the mill many times, the main reason I posted is that I was at B&Q the other day getting my tool fix, and happened to pass through the Electrical bit, and being a nosy git, I got speaking to this Bloke who was after some cable and sockets to wire his new extension, and found the price the Sparky was quoting far to high and as it was only a couple sockets he would do it himself, so why was he asking advice? where or who dose the problem lie with? Sorry for the long winded ramble.

 

[oracle]

but the RCD will trip as soon as a load is applied.

You are assuming that every socket outlet everywhere has RCD protection.
Requirements for RCD protection have changed with different editions and were subject to interpretation and there are probably millions of homes still using only BS3036 rewirable fuses

 

[Deuce]

Like for like replacement, while not notifiable, still needs a Minor Works certificate, certifying that the said work has been designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with (current) BS7671.

Brings us back to "without any experience, training, testing, certification"

Even simple work can go wrong. A socket outlet with a neutral / earth swap will still function but any Class 1 appliance plugged into it can shock or kill.

So the DIY buys a nice new plug in socket tester to make sure it's connected right, but guess what ? His socket tester can't identify a neutral earth swap.

It don't think it does 'need' a minor works certificate, although I appreciate most sparks would complete one, simply for a record and to demonstrate that the circuit was tested at the same time.

And failing to test, or failing to get the neutral and earth in the correct places, is not really something 'going wrong', it's something done wrong by an incompetent person who should recognise their own incompetence and pay a professional.

If someone is able and competent though, let them change their own light fitting/socket, whatever.

I do think it would perhaps help if all DIY works were notifiable (no exceptions) via a very simple online portal, as that would challenge anyone determined to DIY to accept that they do need a proper tester and the ability to use it. Many people can do a good job of making a solid connection, but I accept that the thing that the majority overlook altogether is testing.

 

[Deuce]

Like for like replacement, while not notifiable, still needs a Minor Works certificate, certifying that the said work has been designed, constructed, inspected and tested in accordance with (current) BS7671.

Brings us back to "without any experience, training, testing, certification"

Even simple work can go wrong. A socket outlet with a neutral / earth swap will still function but any Class 1 appliance plugged into it can shock or kill.

So the DIY buys a nice new plug in socket tester to make sure it's connected right, but guess what ? His socket tester can't identify a neutral earth swap.

It don't think it does 'need' a minor works certificate, although I appreciate most sparks would complete one, simply for a record and to demonstrate that the circuit was tested at the same time.

And failing to test, or failing to get the neutral and earth in the correct places, is not really something 'going wrong', it's something done wrong by an incompetent person who should recognise their own incompetence and pay a professional.

If someone is able and competent though, let them change their own light fitting/socket, whatever.

I do think it would perhaps help if all DIY works were notifiable (no exceptions) via a very simple online portal, as that would challenge anyone determined to DIY to accept that they do need a proper tester and the ability to use it. Many people can do a good job of making a solid connection, but I accept that the thing that the majority overlook altogether is testing.

 

[oracle]

but the RCD will trip as soon as a load is applied.

You are assuming that every socket outlet everywhere has RCD protection.
Requirements for RCD protection have changed with different editions and were subject to interpretation and there are probably millions of homes still using only BS3036 rewirable fuses

 

[pirate]

Well I gave a "like" cos Deuce made a lot of sense...however it is down to common sense and attitude in many cases...know your limitations, and don't step over the line. But...so many believe their skill-set is up to the mark, when it isn't.
One of my best friends is a neuro-surgeon...he struggles with anything basic on the electrical front, despite abviously having a manual dexterity few of us could achieve. Even if he stood by my side, there is no way I could make an incision in a person's body, never mind brain...
There can be no fixed criteria.
And on the sparks vs plu...thread, which I have ignored today, I have plumbed dozens of kitchens and bathrooms over the years, and never had a problem, but I have employed so called experts 3 times and each one was a disaster...a total disaster. I have 2 plumbers I know and respect, and would use if I had to, but they both have university degrees in engineering, which doesn't make them better, it just reminds them that a good job is a good job.

 

[oracle]

It don't think it does 'need' a minor works certificate, although I appreciate most sparks would complete one, simply for a record and to demonstrate that the circuit was tested at the same time.

And failing to test, or failing to get the neutral and earth in the correct places, is not really something 'going wrong', it's something done wrong by an incompetent person who should recognise their own incompetence and pay a professional.

If someone is able and competent though, let them change their own light fitting/socket, whatever.

I do think it would perhaps help if all DIY works were notifiable (no exceptions) via a very simple online portal, as that would challenge anyone determined to DIY to accept that they do need a proper tester and the ability to use it. Many people can do a good job of making a solid connection, but I accept that the thing that the majority overlook altogether is testing.

The reason an installation is tested after work is done is that even electricians can make mistakes and any snags can be found before handover

 

[Deuce]

The reason an installation is tested after work is done is that even electricians can make mistakes and any snags can be found before handover

I don't know why you have just explained this, it's clear that that's the reason for pretty much any testing surely?

That's why I said it was the missing part in most DIY attempts.

 

[Marvo]

What about those of us that are not strictly diy'ers, just not qualified full time sparks?

I work in water displays/features/special FX. As such I'm involved in a lot of automation, in addition to designing and building panels .............

So you're actually a plumber...
Just joking, I've got a similar problem, I design and build panels mostly for mining and marine plant applications but I've never worked on domestic electrics or joined a 'scheme' and I've never owned a copy of the UK regs.

It does seem a good idea. But in general this forum just has to make clear that advice is just 'opinion' and that anyone reading it should consider that all liability for their work is ultimately their own..........

There is a disclaimer that all new members have to agree to that states all advice given on the forum is done so with no guarantee or implication or accuracy.

 

[Deuce]

So you're actually a plumber...
Just joking, I've got a similar problem, I design and build panels mostly for mining and marine plant applications but I've never worked on domestic electrics or joined a 'scheme' and I've never owned a copy of the UK regs.

That's my position exactly really. It's not a problem as such, although it would be useful if we were a larger outfit that could afford a spark to be in the workshop permanently for general assistance and guidance on regulation. That's why I sometimes pose questions on here, designing a solution that will work for my needs is easy enough, but starting the design in a way that won't be difficult to adapt to meet all regs in it's final form requires some input early on sometimes.

There is a disclaimer that all new members have to agree to that states all advice given on the forum is done so with no guarantee or implication or accuracy.

I must have missed that - but nobody reads these things

So long as it's there though... But perhaps would be a good idea to display it more pervasively along with a few useful links to examples of the problems of taking snippets of advice without an overall level of understanding.

 

[Des 56]

If there is need(which statistics do not support)for increased monitoring of electrical installation work, modifying or expanding the present failed system is not the answer

If the world of test and inspection was regulated and applied to property sales,it matters little whether a diy person or a registered incompetent carried out the work

 

[diyterry]

Probably a well thought and commonly discussed subject. I know the Forum has a DIY section, and has a policy of not offering step by step advice on how to do various electrical work, a good policy in my book, and I think many, if not all Electricians would agree with.

However this policy does not deter many DIYers and people who think they are Electricians from asking questions in very suspicious ways on "how do I do this that or the other, or I have been to B&Q and bought this and that, how would you do so and so.

It's difficult at times to explain to these people, that it's a dangerous thing to try and help without being off hand, and sometimes, when they won't or can't understand why you are reluctant to help, why won't you help the Guy in B&Q sold me this stuff and said it was easy as he was an Electrician because he had done a meaningless course, and he is now qualified as an Electrician.

With all the hype of Part P etc, do you not think the problem lies with the Government, the CPSchemes or who, I do realist that the likes of B&Q, Srewfix etc are a Godsend on a weekend or Bank Holiday when someone calls you up with a problem, and these are just a couple of outlets whereby you can get materials at short notice.

Where do you think the answer lies? should there be a ban on outlets like the two I have mentioned from selling electrical installation products to the public, should these outlets Police the selling of these products to qualified people, restrict selling this gear to the Trade areas, it would be interesting to share your thoughts, without prejudice, and I do realise this subject has been through the mill many times, the main reason I posted is that I was at B&Q the other day getting my tool fix, and happened to pass through the Electrical bit, and being a nosy git, I got speaking to this Bloke who was after some cable and sockets to wire his new extension, and found the price the Sparky was quoting far to high and as it was only a couple sockets he would do it himself, so why was he asking advice? where or who dose the problem lie with? Sorry for the long winded ramble.

From a diyer's point of view it's lack of knowledge

Probably a well thought and commonly discussed subject. I know the Forum has a DIY section, and has a policy of not offering step by step advice on how to do various electrical work, a good policy in my book, and I think many, if not all Electricians would agree with.

However this policy does not deter many DIYers and people who think they are Electricians from asking questions in very suspicious ways on "how do I do this that or the other, or I have been to B&Q and bought this and that, how would you do so and so.

It's difficult at times to explain to these people, that it's a dangerous thing to try and help without being off hand, and sometimes, when they won't or can't understand why you are reluctant to help, why won't you help the Guy in B&Q sold me this stuff and said it was easy as he was an Electrician because he had done a meaningless course, and he is now qualified as an Electrician.

With all the hype of Part P etc, do you not think the problem lies with the Government, the CPSchemes or who, I do realist that the likes of B&Q, Srewfix etc are a Godsend on a weekend or Bank Holiday when someone calls you up with a problem, and these are just a couple of outlets whereby you can get materials at short notice.

Where do you think the answer lies? should there be a ban on outlets like the two I have mentioned from selling electrical installation products to the public, should these outlets Police the selling of these products to qualified people, restrict selling this gear to the Trade areas, it would be interesting to share your thoughts, without prejudice, and I do realise this subject has been through the mill many times, the main reason I posted is that I was at B&Q the other day getting my tool fix, and happened to pass through the Electrical bit, and being a nosy git, I got speaking to this Bloke who was after some cable and sockets to wire his new extension, and found the price the Sparky was quoting far to high and as it was only a couple sockets he would do it himself, so why was he asking advice? where or who dose the problem lie with? Sorry for the long winded ramble.

Probably a well thought and commonly discussed subject. I know the Forum has a DIY section, and has a policy of not offering step by step advice on how to do various electrical work, a good policy in my book, and I think many, if not all Electricians would agree with.

However this policy does not deter many DIYers and people who think they are Electricians from asking questions in very suspicious ways on "how do I do this that or the other, or I have been to B&Q and bought this and that, how would you do so and so.

It's difficult at times to explain to these people, that it's a dangerous thing to try and help without being off hand, and sometimes, when they won't or can't understand why you are reluctant to help, why won't you help the Guy in B&Q sold me this stuff and said it was easy as he was an Electrician because he had done a meaningless course, and he is now qualified as an Electrician.

With all the hype of Part P etc, do you not think the problem lies with the Government, the CPSchemes or who, I do realist that the likes of B&Q, Srewfix etc are a Godsend on a weekend or Bank Holiday when someone calls you up with a problem, and these are just a couple of outlets whereby you can get materials at short notice.

Where do you think the answer lies? should there be a ban on outlets like the two I have mentioned from selling electrical installation products to the public, should these outlets Police the selling of these products to qualified people, restrict selling this gear to the Trade areas, it would be interesting to share your thoughts, without prejudice, and I do realise this subject has been through the mill many times, the main reason I posted is that I was at B&Q the other day getting my tool fix, and happened to pass through the Electrical bit, and being a nosy git, I got speaking to this Bloke who was after some cable and sockets to wire his new extension, and found the price the Sparky was quoting far to high and as it was only a couple sockets he would do it himself, so why was he asking advice? where or who dose the problem lie with? Sorry for the long winded ramble.

Some people will always like to work on their own homes just as others like work on their cars not necessarily for financial reasons but for the satisfaction of a job well done.

 

[Marvo]

........I must have missed that - but nobody reads these things

So long as it's there though... But perhaps would be a good idea to display it more pervasively along with a few useful links to examples of the problems of taking snippets of advice without an overall level of understanding.

It is stated in various other places as well like here for example.

 

[oracle]

From a diyer's point of view it's lack of knowledge


Some people will always like to work on their own homes just as others like work on their cars not necessarily for financial reasons but for the satisfaction of a job well done.

Anyone can work on their own car but they still need an MOT.
This is the Law
Anyone can work on their own house but planning permission may be needed and any alteration or addition to the electrical system is notifiable to the Local Building authority.
This is the Law.

 

[Deuce]

From a diyer's point of view it's lack of knowledge


Some people will always like to work on their own homes just as others like work on their cars not necessarily for financial reasons but for the satisfaction of a job well done.

In my new extension I plan to do first fix electrical myself, partly because I can save a bit of money and jump in between the other trades when there is an opportunity (in the evenings), but mostly because I will know it's been done neatly. In the rest of the house I'm sick of wonky backboxes and in one case the cable pulled through across a sharp edge so hard that it's gone through the outer sheath and part stripped the live. But hey, it tests ok so...

I also investigated a dodgy MCB that kept tripping, only to discover that one end of the ring main (sockets) was terminated into the MCB, the other was slightly discoloured and actually sat just above the screw terminal and basically just making light contact with the first. The house was built 6 years ago and was one of hundreds on the estate so no doubt some very young and unmotivated sparks were involved. I'm sure I would get a far better result from an independent local spark with a reputation to protect - but it's still pretty galling how bad some 'professionals' are.

 

[diyterry]

In my new extension I plan to do first fix electrical myself, partly because I can save a bit of money and jump in between the other trades when there is an opportunity (in the evenings), but mostly because I will know it's been done neatly. In the rest of the house I'm sick of wonky backboxes and in one case the cable pulled through across a sharp edge so hard that it's gone through the outer sheath and part stripped the live. But hey, it tests ok so...

I also investigated a dodgy MCB that kept tripping, only to discover that one end of the ring main (sockets) was terminated into the MCB, the other was slightly discoloured and actually sat just above the screw terminal and basically just making light contact with the first. The house was built 6 years ago and was one of hundreds on the estate so no doubt some very young and unmotivated sparks were involved. I'm sure I would get a far better result from an independent local spark with a reputation to protect - but it's still pretty galling how bad some 'professionals' are.

That's what I say, you can be as qualified as you like, but it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to do a proper job. That's down to person doing the work having pride in their work, but that's true of all trades.