ECA and ESC announce major partnership

[NICEIC ENGINEER]

As announced yesterday the ECA and ESC have formed a new partnership for the good of the industry.

From April next year the NICEIC and ELECSA brands will be operated by a new venture called Certsure giving the industry a stronger voice to government and major stakeholders.

The move will bring many benefits to NICEIC and ELECSA registrants, the first of which is the creation of www.electricalsafetyregister.com a definitive searchable database of more than 30 000 registered electricians.

As part of our policy to be open and informative about the merger we have set up this thread for anyone to ask any questions or queries they might have.

A member of the NICEIC team will monitor the site at various points over the next week and provide answers to any questions you might have about the move.

We want you to get involved and look forward to hearing from you.

 

[Outspoken]

Like the doctors have? That'll be the one that does everything except strike off members who have caused untold misery and harm. The one that allows doctors to practice in the UK who can't speak basic English. The one which does everything within it's power to avoid anyone outside the organisation to have access to it's members work and cock-up history.

We do NOT need another organisation to decide that it's now in charge of the universe. All that's needed is a very simple enforcement of the standards, and prosecution of anyone (customer or electrician) who doesn't abide by them. Everything is already in place for that, all it needs is action.

I think your being a little harsh on the GMC, but I do take your point, that is why all such information should be available to potential employers, why there should be a rating system based on qualifications, experience and customer/employer feedback as well as feedback from independent inspections of work carried out. Any organisation so created should be up to totally transparent and open inspection and audit by third party organisations and even it's membership.

I am opposed to closed doors but fully supportive of open and transparent systems.

 

[Rockingit]

Like the doctors have?

I've said this before elsewhere - Mrs Rock is a dental professional, and the GDC is god. She is constantly looking over her shoulder at requirements, continued professional development, insurances, mal-practice issues, etc etc. Yes, there are an enormous amount of foreign dentists in this country, but that has nothing to do with the 'wishes' of the GDC, just a reflection on current UK/EU employment law (if anything the GDC are powerless in this matter). And the GDC do a very good job at protecting the working rights of its' members.

We do NOT need another organisation to decide that it's now in charge of the universe. All that's needed is a very simple enforcement of the standards, and prosecution of anyone (customer or electrician) who doesn't abide by them. Everything is already in place for that, all it needs is action

So....who exactly is to do the enforcing, and by who's standards??!!

 

[imago]

So....who exactly is to do the enforcing,

Everyone involved, building control, foreman, customer, electrician, comissioning engineer etc. It will be in their interests as they will bear equal responsibility for anything that goes ---- up.

and by who's standards??!!

The same as every other trade works to, building regs, H&S at work, electrical safety and so on.

It's really not difficult, and I think that's the problem. There's no need for comittees, steering groups, little hitlers, experts, fee demanding organisations or any new powers. So no one wants to do it, they want to have a new version of the old system because theirs will work so much better than all the ones that have gone before.

 

[Outspoken]

Everyone involved, building control, foreman, customer, electrician, comissioning engineer etc. It will be in their interests as they will bear equal responsibility for anything that goes ---- up.

Sorry, which planet have you been living on, no bugger takes any responsibility unless forced too. The scam bodies are only after money and they really don't care about enforcement and they actually have no powers to do so other than remove people from their register. Companies have a responsibility to retrain or eradicate poor workmanship, but even in this they are limited by commercial necessity and employment laws..

The same as every other trade works to, building regs, H&S at work, electrical safety and so on.

It's really not difficult, and I think that's the problem. There's no need for comittees, steering groups, little hitlers, experts, fee demanding organisations or any new powers. So no one wants to do it, they want to have a new version of the old system because theirs will work so much better than all the ones that have gone before.

Sorry, but I think you simply have an authority issue and a rose tinted view of the world we operate in. No-one has said anything about Hitler, committees, steering groups etc, your starting sound like an embittered Union rep to me.

Until the Electricians and the Engineers take charge of OUR industry then NOTHING will change, enforcement will be lackluster at best and the useless and poorly trained will continue to put lives and the industry at risk.. If that is what you want then I suggest you go an work for the NICEIC or ECA.

But please do correct me on my opinion of your thought process if it is wrong.

Also, I think that this is not the thread for this debate as it is taking this way off the beaten track..

 

[imago]

no bugger takes any responsibility unless forced too.

Exactly, so force them. Imagine the change in attitudes and standards if no one was able to dodge their responsibilities. The customer is held legally responsible for ensuring the tradesman is qualified. The tradesman is held legally responsible for his work. The designer for his specs, etc etc etc.

I don't have an issue with authority, although I notice that you infer that such a body would be an authority rather than 'for the people' nor do I have rose tinted view of anything. I simply have a low tolerance for unnecessary bullsh1t, and everytime somone dreams up a governing body, registration scheme etc the BS soon follows.

In fact here's a challenge (good natured rather than gauntlet throwing) can you name one single governing body, trade organisation or similar which has:- improved the lot of those it governs, raised standards in its field, and isn't a bureaucratic power trip for its management?

 

[Outspoken]

Exactly, so force them. Imagine the change in attitudes and standards if no one was able to dodge their responsibilities. The customer is held legally responsible for ensuring the tradesman is qualified. The tradesman is held legally responsible for his work. The designer for his specs, etc etc etc.

However no-one is enforcing anything as we have all established, there is money in the system and so no-one wants to rock the boat. As no-one is rocking the boat then perhaps those in the boat need to stand up and be counted and throw those out who are not rowing in sync with everyone else, because at the moment the rowing boat is going backward in circles!!

I don't have an issue with authority, although I notice that you infer that such a body would be an authority rather than 'for the people' nor do I have rose tinted view of anything. I simply have a low tolerance for unnecessary bullsh1t, and everytime somone dreams up a governing body, registration scheme etc the BS soon follows.

That is the whole point though, get rid of the bull, and in terms of authority I would see the body as only having authority over it's members by it's members for the benefit of it's members, now I appreciate that is easy to say and less simple to implement, but that is exactly where cynical gits like you and a lot of other sparks come in because your voice would ensure that it does not evolve into some scam nonsense body like the others, but a respected body just like CIBSE, or the IEE was at one time and stopped being about 50 years ago!!

In fact here's a challenge (good natured rather than gauntlet throwing) can you name one single governing body, trade organisation or similar which has:- improved the lot of those it governs, raised standards in its field, and isn't a bureaucratic power trip for its management?

CIBSE is akin to what you ask, and CORGI started out that way, but your right, many become too bureaucratic and self-righteous, and that is why if it is OWNED by the membership everyone has a say and all views accounted for that all can then decide in the direction the body goes. And like Tony and several others this should be the administration of a national register of Electricians with details of quals, experience and references (positive and negative) so it deals with the individuals and not the employer.

 

[Engineer54]

Exactly, so force them. Imagine the change in attitudes and standards if no one was able to dodge their responsibilities. The customer is held legally responsible for ensuring the tradesman is qualified. The tradesman is held legally responsible for his work. The designer for his specs, etc etc etc.

I don't have an issue with authority, although I notice that you infer that such a body would be an authority rather than 'for the people' nor do I have rose tinted view of anything. I simply have a low tolerance for unnecessary bullsh1t, and everytime somone dreams up a governing body, registration scheme etc the BS soon follows.

In fact here's a challenge (good natured rather than gauntlet throwing) can you name one single governing body, trade organisation or similar which has:- improved the lot of those it governs, raised standards in its field, and isn't a bureaucratic power trip for its management?

I really can't see your problem here, having a National Registry of Qualified Electricians will cut out most, if not all the other bodies that are presently taking money out of your pocket and giving nothing in return. Only those that don't have the required training and experience need worry about such a system, and basically why such a system is needed and long over due!!

Not sure if my thinking is the same as others here, but my view is, that every electrician in the country will eventually need to be registered under the scheme be they employed, self employed, industrial, commercial or domestic. One set of governing rules and grades for all. It certainly works and protects electricians as well as private companies and the general public alike in other countries, where electricians registration is mandatory.


As far as i can see, virtually every question you've raised has been positively answered and your still trying to find an argument against such a scheme!! I'm beginning to think you may well be one of the fast track DI's, and if that is the case, then i can fully understand why your so dead set against a National Register of Qualified. Electricians...

 

[oldtimer]

Ok I live in Scotland and Part P!sh does not affect me but I see how it is operating and would fight tooth and nail if they tried to introduce it up here . Outspoken I have no doubt you have honorable intentions and good on you for not running with the pack. I have been in the industry for the past 38 where we had a structure and a central registration body and in some affect we still do up here as the majority of sparks are SJIB registered and we have Select who I must admit have done a great job when it comes to training and the promotion of the trade and that was fine until we had to have another Scheme up here and NICEIC stepped in and basically are trying to pull us down to their level.

So essentially whats wrong well in my view the chickens are coming home to roost in all aspects of business so whether it be banking,insurance,double glazing ,Home emergency companies,or Scheme providers I could go on but every day there is a new scandell thing is all of these sectors in my view were driven by a sales culture that could not give a ---- about standards and it is obvious that our sector is at saturation level with Scheme providers keeping us on life support so that they can squeeze more blood out of us. So if it aint broke dont fix it well thats why the country is in the state that it is in because look at Canada the banking scandell passed them by
because they were not allowed to get into casino banking instead they were seen as dull and boring.

Great so how do we fix it well lets look at this in engineering terms is it broke YES has Scheme Providers improved the sector NO but its not rocket science to figure out they need to go as the House of Commons enquiry into Part P said the Scheme providers had a clear conflict of interests and to me on the outside the tail is wagging the dog here as I have never seen a membership that is that basically is running scared of a system that dictates what they can and cannot do but the trick here is that you the Scheme members are the customers and basically need to sort this out by bringing your Scheme Provider to account and need to ask why am i paying you £800 a year when you don't even police the very system that you are meant to uphold. This is like a dependency culture where we the electricians are treated like heroin addicts waiting for our next fix and hoping the scheme provider will pass our next assessment and hopefully not try and sell us another course to ensure we are up to speed with the regs that funny enough have yet again been reviewed .

Now they will say A yes but we are a Not for Profit Organisation and yes they dont have shareholders but they can vote themselves big pay rises and pension schemes and if they do make more money well there is the end of year bonus to pay out. This in my view is why this trade is on its ar$e because they the Schemes are gorging at the trough. Hence why they need to be held to account by the people who pay them ie YOU so next time you should ask for a detailed set of accounts with regards to the amount of employees and the money paid out to pay,pension & bonuses.

For you younger guys this may not be a big deal but for guys like me I see the apathy within the trade with 60 year old sparks saying sod this and getting jobs as cleaners because they have constantly had to keep up with constant change for the sake of it driving 40 odd years of experience out of the trade. I can only speak for myself but the amount of guys who say to me O I used to be an electrician. So for me an example of what I have had to do

14th Edition
15th Edition
16th Edition
17th Edition including reviews
I&T including reviews ie PIR-EICR
ISI&TEE or PAT and again pointless reviews that have done nothing to improve
H&S exams every 3 years

So will some tell me what other trade has had to comply and burden the cost of changes like this ? Years ago we had respect on site now we are a figure of fun as we have our heads in a book either trying to interpit the regulations or trying to swat for the next exam . I have said for years there should be a national registration for electricians listing your grade qualifications run by the JIB and funded by electricians who have to pay £30-£50 a year with the Schemes being left with training and even inspections with regards to disputes

 

[KAS1]

Snap "14th Edition
15th Edition
16th Edition
17th Edition including reviews
I&T including reviews ie PIR-EICR
ISI&TEE or PAT and again pointless reviews that have done nothing to improve
H&S exams every 3 years" Roll on the 18th 19th etc lol At least the SJIB/JIB grade is still highly regarded all over

 

[Engineer54]

You make some good points Oldtimer (as always)...


The trouble is all the existing bodies have had their chance and blown it big time, either because the money became more important than the actual system they were originally tasked to implement, or were uninterested and/or unwilling to expand outside of it's historic domains.


A National Register would in reality clear the board in many ways, leaving these other existing bodies greatly reduced scope to cane anyone in the industry for money, and none would be mandatory either.

One thing is for sure, something needs to be done about the ongoing fragmentation and the de-skilling that's taking place within the UK electrical industry. Or it won't be too long before we'll be importing qualified contract electricians from the likes of Germany, France and other highly trained European countries!! We can't continue just turning out domestic based electricians, from colleges and training centres...

 

[imago]

I really can't see your problem here, having a National Registry of Qualified Electricians will cut out most, if not all the other bodies that are presently taking money out of your pocket and giving nothing in return.

So it's going to be free then? In which case how will it operate? Or are you proposing replacing a subscription based organisation which seeks to exert power over an industry with a subscription based organisation which seeks to exert power over an industry?

IAs far as i can see, virtually every question you've raised has been positively answered and your still trying to find an argument against such a scheme!!

Time to clean your specs then, because none of the questions raised have been answered. The original statements have been repeated but that doesn't answer the questions nor address the flaws or indeed describe in any way how the new set up would differ from the existing one except from giving total control to one body so that they can weild the ultimate power irrespective of any views or opposition. A dictatorship if you will.

I'm beginning to think you may well be one of the fast track DI's, and if that is the case, then i can fully understand why your so dead set against a National Register of Qualified. Electricians...

You seem to be under the impression that your thoughts are of some importance? Sorry to pop your bubble but they are of no more interest than any other posts on a forum. You're also wrong in both your assumptions. Firstly I served a four year apprenticeship 1983 to 1987 and have worked in construction and maintenance until this day having held a number of different roles with increasing responsibilities and reporting staff. I left that side of things behind and set up my own business two years ago. At that time I decided that as a refresher I would attend part time college to gain the later C&G 2330 qualifications and 'update' my 236# What an eye opener that was!

Anyway, the point is I have absolutely nothing to fear from any organisation or individual regarding my carrer, business or skills. Perhaps that's why I'm quite happy to stand on my own two feet? What is it you fear so much that you want an organisation to hold your hand?

Regarding, fast track DIs. I've seen ---- poor work on occaision since I started work at 16. I have also seen the results of Maggies retraining miners to be electricians in a few months. They're they experience sparkies now criticising the latest crop of short course trainees. Soe of them were awful, some were fantastic. Same applies today. There's nothing to fear from competition, you just have to prove your worth and compete.

 

[Knobhead]

A national register would require the authority of parliament and therefore a charter.
America and many EU countries require registration for electricians. Why should the UK be any different?
Without the profit motive of the current schemes I would expect a registration fee much lower than at present. A legally required level of entry will raise standards.

I know it sounds callous, we need a few more MP’s daughters electrocuted to get things underway.

 

[Engineer54]

So it's going to be free then? In which case how will it operate? Or are you proposing replacing a subscription based organisation which seeks to exert power over an industry with a subscription based organisation which seeks to exert power over an industry?



Time to clean your specs then, because none of the questions raised have been answered. The original statements have been repeated but that doesn't answer the questions nor address the flaws or indeed describe in any way how the new set up would differ from the existing one except from giving total control to one body so that they can weild the ultimate power irrespective of any views or opposition. A dictatorship if you will.



You seem to be under the impression that your thoughts are of some importance? Sorry to pop your bubble but they are of no more interest than any other posts on a forum. You're also wrong in both your assumptions. Firstly I served a four year apprenticeship 1983 to 1987 and have worked in construction and maintenance until this day having held a number of different roles with increasing responsibilities and reporting staff. I left that side of things behind and set up my own business two years ago. At that time I decided that as a refresher I would attend part time college to gain the later C&G 2330 qualifications and 'update' my 236# What an eye opener that was!

Anyway, the point is I have absolutely nothing to fear from any organisation or individual regarding my carrer, business or skills. Perhaps that's why I'm quite happy to stand on my own two feet? What is it you fear so much that you want an organisation to hold your hand?

Regarding, fast track DIs. I've seen ---- poor work on occaision since I started work at 16. I have also seen the results of Maggies retraining miners to be electricians in a few months. They're they experience sparkies now criticising the latest crop of short course trainees. Soe of them were awful, some were fantastic. Same applies today. There's nothing to fear from competition, you just have to prove your worth and compete.

You try to pick holes in just about everything that's been put forward, your arguments ''have'' been answered positively you just can't see it, or rather, just don't want too!!

To be frank, your arguments are just about as daft as going back to college, to gain what amounts to a lower standard of the qualification you already held!! And that, just about sums up your points and arguments !!

 

[Knobhead]

have also seen the results of Maggies retraining miners to be electricians in a few months.

You couldn't hold a light (Davy Lamp) to a pit electrician!

Stop insulting people because you feel inadequate.


I may be speaking out of turn, but I think you will find both E54 and I care very much for the UK’s electrical standards. Why I don’t know, E54 will retire soon and I am retired. Why the hell do we constantly fight to improve knowledge? It’s not going to better ourselves financially. It’s principle!

A once proud trade is in the gutter through profiteering of the schemes and training providers added to the indolence of the tradesmen.*

* don’t make me laugh, it hurts.

I’m dying, why the hell should I give a ---- what happens?

I care is the only reason, god alone knows why!

 

[imago]

You couldn't hold a light (Davy Lamp) to a pit electrician!

Who mentioned pit electricians? I referred to the fast track courses of the 1980s, those miners were retrained as plumbers and electricians and they were also looked down on by the electricians of the day. Yet now they'd be classed as experienced and so the world turns.

A once proud trade is in the gutter through profiteering of the schemes and training providers added to the indolence of the tradesmen.*

Here we go again with the teary eyed "once proud trade" routine. Firstly the trade's still here it hasn't stopped because you've retired. Secondly if the people working in that trade produce work of a high standard then it will remain a proud trade. Skilled tradesmen and people who take pride in their work didn't dissappear when you retired, they are still out there working. There's plenty of rubbish out there too, but that's nothing new.

Stop insulting people because you feel inadequate.

Physician heal thyself!

Stop insulting everyone who has trained or worked in the industry in recent times. Just because you find yourself embittered as your no longer working does not give you the right to slag off an entire generation of working tradesmen. Their training was different to yours, but did you ever stop to consider that it's more relevant to the job and time they're working in?