ECA and ESC announce major partnership

[NICEIC ENGINEER]

As announced yesterday the ECA and ESC have formed a new partnership for the good of the industry.

From April next year the NICEIC and ELECSA brands will be operated by a new venture called Certsure giving the industry a stronger voice to government and major stakeholders.

The move will bring many benefits to NICEIC and ELECSA registrants, the first of which is the creation of www.electricalsafetyregister.com a definitive searchable database of more than 30 000 registered electricians.

As part of our policy to be open and informative about the merger we have set up this thread for anyone to ask any questions or queries they might have.

A member of the NICEIC team will monitor the site at various points over the next week and provide answers to any questions you might have about the move.

We want you to get involved and look forward to hearing from you.

 

[robswainelect]

Has the NICEIC Part P annual assessments been affected by this merger? Not had a letter yet to tell me when my annual assessment is happening? Usually get a letter in January??

 

[gonefishing]

has anyone other than me seen this
NICEIC March e-Newsletter
It will soon be ok for numpty to arrange with his mate who is also a fly boy to sign the fly boys work off. God , I bet that never happened before !
Strange event the other day I saw a Domestic NICEIC installer displaying an "Approved" NICEIC installer logo on his van. Contacted the misuseoflogo team at the NICEIC and guess what..... nothings happened and they need more time to investigate (already been 3 weeks) after the NICEIC ignored the contractor in Poole a few years ago I wasn't expecting much. But poor old Bob Stone got it in the neck from a few contractors. Wish he was still here, I would tear up my NICIEC approved registration in front of him. Cowboys the lot of them and they get away with it, taking my money every year and telling me I must do this and that and they can't even control the cowboys that are registered with them. Shame on the NICEIC

 

[Knobhead]

Gonefishing, click HERE

 

[Sparkytlec]

Is it not an odd thing that we pay to be members of these schemes but have no say over how they are run or managed!

If you are a member of a professional body like the IET you get to vote for the committee every year. So at least there is a method of getting things changed by the membership if they are not happy how things are being done (all be it very slow). You also have to have the qualifications to join them in the first place.

The scheme providers are company's that dictate how we do it and we have to pay them for the privilege! I would like to see the members of such schemes have a say in how they are run.

 

[Outspoken]

I hate to say this but the Electricians and the Engineers of the industry are in part to blame for all this.

Back in 2002 when all the Part P conversations were being had my business partner and I sunk more than £40K each into setting up an organisation to represent just the electricians and engineers of England and Wales. The organisation was to be owned and operated by it's members as a Not For Profit Organisation (NPO), all money made over the course of the year would be ploughed back into it for the benefit of members and if possible subsidised/free training. Each county would have someone to represent the local sparks/engineers and these would be elected by the membership of said county. Annually there would be a vote to elect someone to represent the organisation at government/industry level nationally. In the early days all roles within the organisation would be voluntary, no-one would be paid, although eventually these would have to be full time positions and so discussions would have to be had about this in the future.

Rob and I had numerous discussions with the NICEIC (pointless), the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister (lied to us) and the Union rep for the south east, who summarily slagged us off and called us profiteering scum before hanging up the phone when i stated that we would be a trade organisation not a union and we would have members and represent members who may be employed, self-employed, directors or at any level so long as they could show they were a duly qualified electrician/engineer and active in the industry.

We set up a website and an online forum, it did not take long for us to get a couple of thousand members of the forum and in the early days there were a number of people who saw the benefits and joined, at NO COST as we were not planning to charge a membership in the early days, the plan was to get members and then decide as a group what costs would be, whether it should be a set fee for all or dependent on your membership, however we planned to ensure that membership was kept manageable and at sensible levels.

We did this for almost 18 months, as I said Rob and I committed nearly £80K of our hard earned money, not to mention time, to this project, and you know what happened, we got hate mail, threats of violence, accused of being thieves and simply operating another scam.

Between Rob and I we estimated we committed some 3500 hours of our combined time outside of work to this, we were shut out by the ECA and the NICEIC, the ODPM refused to speak to us in person and after all the abuse and the threats, which involved the Police at the end due to a car being torched, we simply gave up and decided the Electrical Industry got what it deserved because it treated everyone with contempt, even those attempting to help.

The stress was such on Rob that he resigned from the company because he was worried about his young family and he went back to being an employee. I decided I had had enough for a while and when the Jobs we had on came to an end I simply packed up and went to Spain for 9 months just travelling about ignoring my divorce that was in play and simply closing the website and the forums, which was a shame as there was some really good and knowledgeable Guys on there who wanted to make a positive change.

I have been asked several times if I would do it again, simple answer, not on your nelly, I would not put my young family through what I experienced before and since the banking crisis I am not as financially fluid as before, I have shied away from doing anything that puts my head above the parapet and have no intention of doing so.

So with respect Guys and to the membership here, who perhaps represent the better members of the industry, the current situation is of your own making.

The training will continue to be dumbed down, the standards will continue to slip, wages/income will continue to fall behind other trades and electricians will continue to be thought of with contempt by the majority of joe Public who think it's an easy job even they can do, and this is made worse by the Electrical Trainee course that need to be banned and made illegal. We need a return to true and proper apprenticeships that last at least 4 years and are a mix of hand on and classroom work in rotation as it was.

 

[Outspoken]

As an addendum to the above post of mine I would like to state the following;

The electrical industry in this country is still in need of a Trade organisation that represents the grass roots people working in it on a daily basis. This organisation needs to;

• Represent the Employed Electricians working in the contracting and the Maintenance Industries, and this should include company directors.
• Represent the self-employed Electricians working in the contracting and other sectors of the industry, and this should include company directors.
• Represent the Engineers who are currently working in the Industry at whatever level and in whatever capacity.
• Be a Not For Profit organisation that is owned and operated by it's membership
• Seek the approval of the State to adopt the "Chartered" status for suitable qualified and experienced Electricians to increase their standing in the industry and public (If you like "ChElec")
• Actively campaign for the return of true apprenticeships with a minimum of 4 years of training to an accredited level as before.
• Actively campaign for a national register of all Electricians and Engineers. This should include;
  • a record of qualifications held
  • have the scope to "strike them off" for serious, or repeated breaches of agreed national standards.
  • ​Hold references from employers or customers to give a "rating" that is relevant across the country
• Have agreements in place to provide members with discounted Insurances
• Have agreements to arrange group training sessions to reduce overall costs to members, such as when new regulations emerge.
• Campaign for improved regulatory powers to control who can and who cannot undertake electrical work or minimum standards for trainers.
• Be totally democratic so that all officers of the organisation are duly elected by the membership and done so based on merit alone, but with the ability to remove anyone who fails to uphold standards required by the membership.
• Be a trade recognised body that is capable of investigating complaints against members by utilising other members to inspect work and report back, without knowing whose work they are looking at.
• Fight for tighter regulations on the sale of electrical products
• Campaign to inform the public of why it is good to use professional electricians and about electrical safety in general, as the NICEIC and all other bodies have singularly failed in this endeavour despite their hot air over the years.

And that is for starters..

It is still needed and until it arrives the Guys and the Girls working in it will continue to be screwed by the industry big wigs and the public as a whole....

 

[imago]

I'd agree broadly with your first post, not with the addendum though.

The last thing this industry needs is yet another trade organisation, Union or governing body. I'm sure it would start out with laudible intentions, I'm equally sure that within a very short space of time it would turn into yet another self serving shower of grippers.

I would suggest that what this industry needs (and it wouldn't go amiss for the wider society) is for those in it to stop looking for short term self centred gains, grow some balls and tell those who seek to 'organise' or 'regulate' that we're not playing. If everyone can see the benefit for all involved, instead of for the individuals, then things would rapidly change for the better. Sadly human nature will allways win through.

So what will happen is that there will be lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth, some groups and/or committees will be formed. Many lunches, meetings, seminars and brain storming sessions will take place. There will be plenty of moaning on forums, decrying the current situation and fond recalling of times past. Beyond that, no one will actually do anything except bend over and take it whilst handing over more cash.

 

[Outspoken]

I'd agree broadly with your first post, not with the addendum though.

The last thing this industry needs is yet another trade organisation, Union or governing body. I'm sure it would start out with laudible intentions, I'm equally sure that within a very short space of time it would turn into yet another self serving shower of grippers.

I would suggest that what this industry needs (and it wouldn't go amiss for the wider society) is for those in it to stop looking for short term self centred gains, grow some balls and tell those who seek to 'organise' or 'regulate' that we're not playing. If everyone can see the benefit for all involved, instead of for the individuals, then things would rapidly change for the better. Sadly human nature will allways win through.

So what will happen is that there will be lots of wailing and gnashing of teeth, some groups and/or committees will be formed. Many lunches, meetings, seminars and brain storming sessions will take place. There will be plenty of moaning on forums, decrying the current situation and fond recalling of times past. Beyond that, no one will actually do anything except bend over and take it whilst handing over more cash.

If the organisation is owned and controlled by it's members then it would not become another group of "grippers". Your initial reaction is typical of the industry because you failed to recognise that all current organisations are owned by the industry (namely the ECA and similar) and not the people "at the coal face" implementing changes and actually doing the work.

If you want those in the industry to grow some balls and stand up they need to be organised because United we stand and divided we fall is a very true adage. If they are to be organised and represented, because all cannot attend meetings, then you need an organisation to do that on their behalf, back to square one then.

 

[Octopus]

The "schemes" will continue to lose any credibility they have because THEY DO NOTHING to police the farce called Part P.

 

[imago]

Well we're going to have to agree to disagree there I'm afraid.

I've heard all the "united we stand" rubbish before through the '70s and '80s. Along with the nonsense about being controlled by the members. All the same lines were run out by the unions on a regular basis and look how that ended.

It's funny how there's always someone telling people that they need to be organised and represented. They usually have someone in mind for the job too.

So I'll stick with my original position, the last thing this (or any other industry) needs is yet another organisation making sure that it's members are organised, represented and get what 'they' need. The question is, which 'they' is being referred to?

 

[Outspoken]

Well we're going to have to agree to disagree there I'm afraid.

I've heard all the "united we stand" rubbish before through the '70s and '80s. Along with the nonsense about being controlled by the members. All the same lines were run out by the unions on a regular basis and look how that ended.

It's funny how there's always someone telling people that they need to be organised and represented. They usually have someone in mind for the job too.

So I'll stick with my original position, the last thing this (or any other industry) needs is yet another organisation making sure that it's members are organised, represented and get what 'they' need. The question is, which 'they' is being referred to?

That is fine, everyone has their own opinion and I certainly do not disagree for the most part. The problem is the Industry has loads of organisations that represent the manufacturers and the contractors, but there is not one to represent the people who actually make the industry what it is. I certainly have no agenda and would never want to run such an organisation, I never wanted to run it before when Rob and I tried to set one up...I have an aversion to poison chalices..

 

[Knobhead]

I will stand by what I’ve been saying for years. A national register is the only way forward.
It has to have realistic minimum requirements, not a cheque book qualification.
If this takes out ¼ of the UK’s electricians then so be it. It will raise the standard and hopefully the industries image.

A pipe dream, the UK introduces a register. The evening news would carry a headline 25% of electricians struck off!
What would that do for the trade? It will make it known that an electrician “has to be qualified” to practice his trade.
Just like “Gas Safe”.

If I’ve upset some of the incompetent domestic installers, I won’t say sorry. Because I’m not, you are a product of marketing hype. Unfortunately you have fallen foul of get rich quick marketing.

 

[Engineer54]

Well we're going to have to agree to disagree there I'm afraid.

I've heard all the "united we stand" rubbish before through the '70s and '80s. Along with the nonsense about being controlled by the members. All the same lines were run out by the unions on a regular basis and look how that ended.

It's funny how there's always someone telling people that they need to be organised and represented. They usually have someone in mind for the job too.

So I'll stick with my original position, the last thing this (or any other industry) needs is yet another organisation making sure that it's members are organised, represented and get what 'they' need. The question is, which 'they' is being referred to?

A National Register of qualified Electricians is ''NOT'' in any way shape or form, likened to a Union situation!! It would be a recognised ''Official'' National Register, something along the lines (but not the same) as the Doctors have.
What it will do, is do away with the need for scheme providers, as the competency of an electrician will already have been verified by the electrician fulfilling the requirements of being registered into the National Register.

Most countries in the Western world and even beyond, have such a registry, (of sorts) not only for electricians, but also for Engineers as well. And where they can be brought up before a hearing committee, if and when something goes wrong!! But none that i know of, have anything like 5 Week Wonder courses, like those offered in the UK!! lol!!

The only people that would need to be worried by such a National Registry would be those that have taken these fast track courses, because they will not hold any meaningful qualifications or have any site based experience under the supervision of a qualified tradesmen. Even then, i'm sure some form of preliminary status can be given to such candidates while they gain the required qualifications and experience (AM's NVQs etc), but it won't be as an electrician, and the virtual term of Domestic Installer can once and for all, be kicked into touch where it belongs!!

 

[Knobhead]

The national register is the way to go. It’s the only way this profession will regain any respect in society.
If a national register was to get under way (I’ll be long dead by then) it would weed out the dangerous “I can do that” people. People that are sanctioned by the money grubbers to put householders lives at risk.
The schemes and non trades such as domestic installer would cease to exist.

Pull you’re collective fingers out and do something about it!

Why am I getting so wound up by this, I don’t know?

I’ve spent all my working life in heavy industry so the registration bodies never bothered me. You got in based on qualifications and experience.

 

[imago]

A National Register of qualified Electricians is ''NOT'' in any way shape or form, likened to a Union situation!! It would be a recognised ''Official'' National Register, something along the lines (but not the same) as the Doctors have.

Like the doctors have? That'll be the one that does everything except strike off members who have caused untold misery and harm. The one that allows doctors to practice in the UK who can't speak basic English. The one which does everything within it's power to avoid anyone outside the organisation to have access to it's members work and cock-up history.

We do NOT need another organisation to decide that it's now in charge of the universe. All that's needed is a very simple enforcement of the standards, and prosecution of anyone (customer or electrician) who doesn't abide by them. Everything is already in place for that, all it needs is action.