EF's referendum on the EU.

[grantr37]

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[grantr37]

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[grantr37]

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[MDJ]

Trying to get your post count up fella :ihih:

 

[grantr37]

decided the plod kicking my door wasn't worth it....

 

[Vegelen]

Why doesn't Des 56 come out and say that he's spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt because he's scared that the UK is going to leave the EU and as a consequence Wales is going to be annexed geographically / influentially, prevented from receiving as much inward investment from the EU.
As a point of curiosity, how much has Wales received from EU development funds already?
Why is Poland receiving so much inward invest, compared to many other European states?
I've travelled extensively in Poland and it isnt the poorest European country.
The south of Italy and many other parts of Europe have far more deprevation.
The EU is a very large Behemoth, that serves its own interests.
Many European citizens aren't very happy with progress being made.
The UK can make its economic market far more advantageous to invest in, on the edge of Europe, without as many bureaucratic constraints - where would the Japanese then choose to invest?
We've got 7.7% official unemployment. How does that compare with Europe?
Why are many educated Spaniards & French coming to work in England?
Is it because they prefer our English breakfast to their croissants and jam, or is it because their countries are being led to the wall by stupid, short term, ill conceived economic policies?
Spain may one day seek to question its participation in "the club", if the rules dont change to encourage a more stable long term economy.
Quite how that's going to happen with a single currency and long term interest rate that doesnt match the development of its own economy, is unclear to me?
If Spain's economy were to rapidly grow, how would a low european interest rate benefit it? Conversley if it were to grind to a halt, how would it fair if Europes interest rates were too high? One medicene doesnt always suit all patients.
Des 56 should travel a little more round Europe and canvass some of its citizens.
England will never be isolated in Europe like he thinks.
If English tourists ceased to go to Spain, France and Greece, their economies would suffer greatly. If they decide not to come here, we would suffer.
Will that happen because we leave the EU? Absolutely not.
We can leave the confines of the European parliment, live by our own rules, continue to trade with our neighbours, run our economy by our own rules and still do perfectly well.
Norway manage fine, why wouldn't we?

 

[Darkwood]

To note the high unemployent at over 50% for young adults in spain is mainly well educated and skilled people ... now germany is encouraging them to influx into germany and giving them german lessons to work there uhmmm! its nice to pick and choose your immigration so you only attract well educated and skilled work force this is a country trying to build a protective wall of skilled industry ....now why would you do that Merkel are you predicting something or do you know something the rest of us dont???

Seem Germany like building walls to protect their interests

 

[Vegelen]

Seem Germany like building walls to protect their interests

Bufford T Justice: Entering The Debate.

Smokey and the Bandit Germans - YouTube

 

[Des 56]

The only reason foreign workers are not flooding into wales in big numbers, only in small numbers compared to the rest of the UK, is that they speak welsh there, and in many parts they refuse to speak any english, it is almost banned, the foreigners all speak very good english for the most part, and the few that don't soon get help to learn it from their fellow countrymen or translated for them....so they head for the UK, America and Australia/New Zealand as they use a language which they mostly already have a good grasp of...
In wales, you can walk into a shop, pub or Hotel and they will just ignore you and refuse to serve you if you speak english....and people wanting to work there.....forget about it....not 100% of the country, but most of it....

That is why wales stays pretty well closed off, if you aint welsh then in places you are made very unwelcome...

There are some pretty negative comments about my country there Grant

If you were to go into a bar or shop etc in Holland (where almost to a person they can speak English) are you offended, if on being aware of your presence they continue to speak Dutch ?
After all, if its their language, it would seem unreasonable to expect that they suddenly change in case they are causing offence by doing so

Wales happens to have 2 languages, ( as does England Scotland,Ireland and most other countrys)
The people here are no different to people of any country,there are good,bad,ignorant,honest criminal and law abiding,it is no different to Scotland England Germany or any other country you care to mention



Veglen quote
Why doesn't Des 56 come out and say that he's spreading fear, uncertainty and doubt because he's scared that England is going to leave the EU and as a consequence Wales is going to be annexed geographically



Its the UK not England that would be withdrawing from Europe and yes I am scared that "England is going to leave"
England seems to be well in favour of doing so,Wales does not have the same animosity towards being part of the EU

The decision whether to stay or leave will be decided in England,it has by far the largest population and we will be taken along for the ride, whether we like it or not

That is why I said, if given a choice, I would see us leave the UK and remain in the EU,but that is neither possible or ever going to happen,that is why we will need to try and influence English people

Annexation? To all intents and purposes,UK is England and Wales cannot make a decision of its own,that is why it is important that we try and change your opinion about the EU

Yes Wales has benefited fron EU investment,but the majority of that proposed investment was clawed back because the UK government did not and would not match the EU funds (which was a precondition of that investment,)
The Uk government is preoccupied only with London and the South east,mainly because they place such reliance on the paper wealth of the city of London




Des 56 should travel a little more round Europe and canvass some of its citizens.

I don't suppose that even more travelling or living in Europe than I already have done would change my opinion on this


I was just thinking maybe there is one country that would be worthwhile getting to know
I have never lived there, or rarely entered the country for that matter but it might be a better option to get a different perspective on the EU and its only over a bridge

 

[Vegelen]

Wales economy has benefited greatly from predominantly English people moving to live and work there.
Conversely many Welsh people have come to live and work in England.
How many Welsh emigrate to Europe or vice versa?
There's probably more Welsh in Australia, New Zealand and the USA, Canada.
The reality is that England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland benefit each other far more than any predisposition to which economic market we collectively join.
Ireland's entry into the EU hasn't ended up being the halcyon journey they expected.
Significant funds were given to help bail out the Irish when they were in economic crisis and a lot of the money didnt originate from EU funds, but from UK tax payers.

 

[ian.settle1]

The real reason that the rest of Europe does not want the UK to leave the EU is where will they find another big Milch Cow like the UK to supply funds for their barmy ideas.

 

[grantr37]

There are some pretty negative comments about my country there Grant If you were to go into a bar or shop etc in Holland (where almost to a person they can speak English) are you offended, if on being aware of your presence they continue to speak Dutch ? After all, if its their language, it would seem unreasonable to expect that they suddenly change in case they are causing offence by doing so Wales happens to have 2 languages, ( as does England Scotland,Ireland and most other countrys) The people here are no different to people of any country,there are good,bad,ignorant,honest criminal and law abiding,it is no different to Scotland England Germany or any other country you care to mention

I hate to tell you this but Scotland only actively has 1 language and that is English, as it was illegal to speak gaelic for a great many years and generations until it was more or less smudged away from history...in the last few years they have started to teach it again with only very limited interest, I do see that the Chinese population in Scotland are actively learning it and enrolling children onto classes as for some reason they see it as being "cultured" to speak the language...for me it is a long dead historic language which I do not know one word of... Apart from that it seems to be used for the entertainment and amusement of tourists...along with the "Jimmy hats" and kilt hire/copious amounts of Whisky...purely for entertaining and amusing those from outside Scotland... Wales is inside the UK where English is the first language recognised as being the national tongue, but many speak welsh when it suits them to their advantage....and play at not understanding English when it suits them...Holland is not inside the UK so if they want to speak Dutch then that is up to them.... how would you like it if you came to England or Scotland and went into a shop or hotel, asked for service in English and got ignored because the local population decided to ignore you and make you unwelcome by speaking in German, Polish or even korean for that matter ? its the very same thing... And also, what is England's second Language? now that you mention it I would love to know.....I thought it was just English...



I forgot to add that many Scottish boys (the family name bearer in the old days of History) were forcibly removed from their parents as young children and brought up in England, forced to learn English "in order to remove the savagery from them" then adopted into tobacco and cotton empire families, after which they were sent back to Scotland to work the offices in Glasgow and Edinburgh and the few who did see their families again could no longer understand/speak to them....that's why we don't have a national language to speak of anymore....ask any History teacher/lecturer you know and they will tell you the same...



This happened to people in Eastern Europe as well when their children were taken away and brought up in Germany and Russia to speak German or Russian, and also happened to Children taken from Sweden to Germany between the 2 wars and during WW2....

 

[UNG]

Take a trip down memory lane
Prime ministers of both parties were almost grovelling at the feet of De Gaulle every time an application for entry was submitted
They didn't particularly want Britain in the organisation, because they had no real need, so year after year,application after application, we were turned away

Eventually,Germany and (mainly) France were pestered and pressured enough to let us join

The UK was then, and is now, a half hearted member,a pain in the neck to EU progress and orderly management,the continentals had suspicions about our integrity then, it has been realised by the little England mentality that has endured since we first begged and pleaded to obtain entry
Why were we so persistent I wonder ?what has changed to alter those reasons

From what I'm told by those old enough to be aware of the politics of the time it was to open free trade across the small number of member countries at the time, once the EEC became the EU the juggernaut started rolling it slowly lost it's original focus to become an unelected dictatorial body that appears to answer to no one that continues to build it's empire by introducing ne countries who have little to give

Don't for one moment think that the EU will collapse without us in the fold,we were reluctantly accepted, and for good reason initially,we were seen by many in Europe as a distraction and an obstacle to the prosperity of the EU

The anti EU electorate may very well get their dream of a UK (or whats left of it) doing it's own thing
The dreamers may also live to regret their foolishness

Given the fragility of the Euro at the moment and the financial straits of a number of the member countries I don't see how the EU will survive or be able to continue to prop up the Central bank with the loss of the UK payments into the EU

It is also possible that the boot may end up on the other foot as UK prospers free of EU red tape and rules while whats left of the EU sinks without trace

Once that seperation has been concluded,are people serious when they believe that favourable trading relations with the EU can or will take place ?
The EU is a market of nations with a common interest and will certainly not go out of its way to concern itself with the well being of UK trade

The EU isn't that free trade every country has little quirks
The EEC was a group of nations initially with a common trading interest. The EU is something different that has lost sight of the original mandate of encouraging free trade

The argument is always made about how much we put in compared to what we get out
The UK has itself to blame (because of its half hearted membership),for much of its woes

An example is the EU fund for regeneration and investment in the poorer areas of Europe
In Wales we were given objective one status,the highest form of assistance

To encorage the individual nations to update their economies every pound of EU money for that investment had to have the same contribution from the central government of that nation in order for it to have sense and meaning,its called matched funding

There was objective one status given to the valleys of Wales,300 million of EU investment had to be turned away in one year alone because the UK government does not concern itself very much with regional investment or prosperity

The EU can offer any amount they want to if it has to be matched to materialise, I have to ask if Wales didn't get this money then where did it go or was it just pie in the sky offer from the EU. The £300 million mentioned is a small amount compared to what is being paid to europe

I also stated before that leaving the EU was mostly an English desire,it does have a majority for doing so in Wales Scotland and N Ireland but nowhere near the anti EU sentiments displayed by English peoples and a lot of those against are influenced by the UK media,they however are still not as determined anti Europeans as those in England

With the debate in Scotland about seperation taking a shop window position in the coming times,there may also be a lot of support generated because of a reluctance to go along with England in this venture and seperation would be more likely than if the UK stopped this unwise venture
Depending on the outcome,Wales and possibly N Ireland would also be looking at their role in a state that gave little interest in their own desire to remain with the EU

They do not receive the support in Scotland or Wales that gives them the full moral right to act on our behalf in this matter, we may be forced to go along with it when push comes to shove,but there may well be repercussions for UK plc in its present form, if this referendum goes the way it appears that it will

This whole debate has many similarities to that of the Scottish devolution debate where Scotland don't want to fully detach themselves from the rest of the UK but want to cherry pick what they keep and what they don't

Its a dangerous and foolish path for our future economy and the future of the UK as a single entity
All because of self interested conservative politicians to display their delusions of empire and importance,which as never truly diminished

It just about sums up the EU commission and their quest for the EU empire. Labour wanted to dismantle the unelected House of Lords yet supports an unelected EU commission that is a law unto itself and totally corrupt

UK and EU: Carwyn Jones concern over referendum pledge
Carwyn Jones says the EU referendum pledge is an unwelcome distraction

Uncertainty over Wales' European Union membership will create years of instability, First Minister Carwyn Jones has warned
Mr Jones called it "an unwelcome distraction" that could affect inward investment and job opportunities.

The Welsh Labour leader said it would also destabilise the future of the UK.


t Quote

This speech will have a destabilising effect on the future of the United Kingdom at a time when we can ill-afford it”
​

Carwyn JonesFirst Minister

, Mr Jones said: "Uncertainty over our membership will create years of instability and marginalisation just at the time when both Wales and the UK need stability, growth and influence.
"Such an uncertain future for the UK in Europe could put a brake on potential inward investors."


Mr Jones said the speech would have unwelcome "constitutional repercussions for the UK itself" and "plays into the hands of those who want to break up the United Kingdom".

The first minister added that it "will have a destabilising effect on the future of the United Kingdom at a time when we can ill-afford it."


Meanwhile Plaid Cymru warned that the benefits Wales enjoyed from EU membership were being put at risk by "the other parties playing political games".
They point to a recently published party report which shows that Wales benefits by an average £40 a year per person from various sources of EU funding.

Above is the type of division that this silly referendum is awakening and it will get worse

It's not a case of being fearful of going it alone at all,I personally and many others would be prepared to accept Wales leaving the UK and being part of a separate state within the EU
The anti EU electorate will not win this argument without a fight

Even if it did win the argument,it is putting the future of the UK as the price that may have to be paid, the sooner this realisation is known the more chance that flag waving English nationalists will see where its best future lies

If you are happy to accept Wales in the EU without England then I think it would cause much bigger problems for Wales how much per head would it cost to get that £40 per person a year out of the EU that Plaid Cymru craves for one. I suspect Wales could become more isolated in the EU with England out of it, could make for interesting border controls, would Wales adopt the Euro or would they adopt the pick and choose attitude

I'm sorry Des it doesn't look like a viable option

 

[Des 56]

This will be my last post in this thread ("thank god" for that did I hear you say)

It has been an interesting discussion,it's clear to me that there are some very solid views with some good points made. but they are well different to my own but I thank you all for the debate even though I was in a very small minority (one)

I will also say that when this silly referendum comes around you will win the vote

David Cameron to my way of thinking has lost the plot,he has with this initiative thrown away his political future
He supports being in the EU, yet has opened a door that he will not be able to close,foolish man

So let time decide who was right and who was wrong,but lets hope for the generations coming after us that I was very wrong with my conclusions and that the UK does indeed prosper from this decision

 

[telectrix]

not wanting to have a go at you, des. or your views, but it is a fact that whatever funding wales did receive from UK, EU, whatever, was all spent in cardiff. places in north wales got nothing and still remain the cesspit they,ve become over the last 50 years. rhyl, colwyn bay etc.