EU Brexit - How will you vote given the latest "news"

[Octopus]

I think the idea is to listen to the reasons for and against, decide for yourself which sound most convincing, and vote that way.

It is clear that the statistics the big company bosses, or "business leaders" are bandying around hold no substance - one tells us we'll all be £32 a month worse off if we stay in, the next one tells us we'll all be £32 a month better off, with little explanation as to why. They all seem to have an opinion and are using the weight of their company to tell everyone else (particularly their employees) how to vote, which I think is wrong.

I find it quite scary that there are people out there who will vote on the basis of the personalities backing the campaign - vote with/against BoJo because he's a roly-poly buffoon, or vote how Jezza Corbyn tells you to because he speaks with conviction and he has a beard, or vote against him because he dresses like Mr Bean.

Which is precisely the OPPOSITE of what he's been saying for the last 30 odd years.......

 

[Darkwood]

@ Adam W - Yep - Corbyn spent his whole career as a anti-EU man and he had passion on his views, now he's Labours frontman he has been put in a very arkward position of saying we should stay in, it was squirmish to watch him when he made that speech and the reason he doesn't make many of them on the issue, clearly a man telling one of the biggest bare faced lies regarding his personal opinion on the EU.

 

[sparksburnout]

@ Adam W - Yep - Corbyn spent his whole career as a anti-EU man and he had passion on his views, now he's Labours frontman he has been put in a very arkward position of saying we should stay in, it was squirmish to watch him when he made that speech and the reason he doesn't make many of them on the issue, clearly a man telling one of the biggest bare faced lies regarding his personal opinion on the EU.

exactly, and its a shame he does not have the courage of his convictions, I am really disappointed in him over this. If he was to come out against remaining and others in the labour party followed suit, I think it would sway things in favour of an exit vote quite a bit.

 

[andyb]

All the people you have cited have their own agendas for staying "IN". They are all either in power because of the EU, have their ridiculously inflated pay-packets by virtue of the EU, or their pensions all down to the EU. Over 80% of the top company bosses you have mentioned have contracts with the government (represented incorrectly by D. Cameron), and turkeys do not vote for Xmas. All the Uni's get most of their income from overseas students, and yes the rest of them are bankers, what more reason to ignore them? So these people should be ignored. Listen to the unbiased, now retired and with no personal involvement views of people like Lord Lawson.

All the people I have cited have their own agendas for staying in, that's blatantly obvious. All the people pushing for out have their own agendas also. That doesn't devalue their argument whether in or out.

'The leader of every mainstream party except Ukip, plus the head of the bank of England, the IFS, the OECD, the IMF, every head of state in Nato, 80% of FTSE companies'


Which of these are 'in power because of the EU, have their ridiculously inflated pay-packets by virtue of the EU, or their pensions all down to the EU'?

 

[andyb]

@ Adam W - Yep - Corbyn spent his whole career as a anti-EU man and he had passion on his views, now he's Labours frontman he has been put in a very arkward position of saying we should stay in, it was squirmish to watch him when he made that speech and the reason he doesn't make many of them on the issue, clearly a man telling one of the biggest bare faced lies regarding his personal opinion on the EU.

Corbyn is in an awkward position, he has traditionally been against UKs membership of the EU. He's having to make the case for UKs membership on the grounds of workers rights while maintaining his reservations on the undemocratic nature of the EU.
He still holds the view that the EU is undemocratic and wants to change it.

If you really want to see a hypocrite in action then look no further than Boris Johnson.
He has gone from in to out, not because of party loyalty or idealogical leaning, but purely for self serving reasons.
This is why he delayed his position for so long, he wanted to see which position was more likely to advance his own political career, he's accused of actually writing 2 speeches, one giving his reasons for staying in and the other, which he used, for leaving. He has been challenged on this and refuses to deny it.

 

[Spoon]

he's accused of actually writing 2 speeches, one giving his reasons for staying in and the other, which he used, for leaving. He has been challenged on this and refuses to deny it.

If he did deny it would you believe him?
Politicians.... It's like the boy who cried wolf....

 

[sparksburnout]

All the people I have cited have their own agendas for staying in, that's blatantly obvious. All the people pushing for out have their own agendas also. That doesn't devalue their argument whether in or out.

'The leader of every mainstream party except Ukip, plus the head of the bank of England, the IFS, the OECD, the IMF, every head of state in Nato, 80% of FTSE companies'

Which of these are 'in power because of the EU, have their ridiculously inflated pay-packets by virtue of the EU, or their pensions all down to the EU'?

All of them are, and if you can't see it you must be blind. 80% of the top FTSE companies have government contracts to preserve, how the hell do you think they are going to vote? Even Jeremy Corbyn, the supposed leader of the labour party is living a lie. He has been anti-EU all his life and now suddenly he is all for it, what a load of carp. Both the IFS and the OECD have direct benefits to staying in, and their opinions are biased and should be disregarded. You need to look at the opinions of previously respected people who have no agenda and only want the best for the COUNTRY, not themselves! And this is NOT the governor of the bank of England, who isn't even British.

 

[Adam W]

Corbyn is in an awkward position, he has traditionally been against UKs membership of the EU. He's having to make the case for UKs membership on the grounds of workers rights while maintaining his reservations on the undemocratic nature of the EU.
He still holds the view that the EU is undemocratic and wants to change it.

If you really want to see a hypocrite in action then look no further than Boris Johnson.
He has gone from in to out, not because of party loyalty or idealogical leaning, but purely for self serving reasons.
This is why he delayed his position for so long, he wanted to see which position was more likely to advance his own political career, he's accused of actually writing 2 speeches, one giving his reasons for staying in and the other, which he used, for leaving. He has been challenged on this and refuses to deny it.

I get the impression Corbyn has communist leanings, and as such he'd probably want out of the EU, although I don't believe leaving the EU would suddenly stop all trade with Europe.

As I said before I think everyone should be free to make their own decision on this and not pressured into what to vote for by any person or political party - the Tories seem to be split down the middle on the issue, which is fine by me.
Unfortunately for Corbyn the likes of Tony Blair (who's done very well out of the EU since leaving office, financially, on a personal level) introduced this idea of shipping in immigrant voters who traditionally vote for left wing parties, and the notion that anyone who is against immigration is a "racist" and/or a "bigot".

 

[andyb]

All of them are, and if you can't see it you must be blind. 80% of the top FTSE companies have government contracts to preserve, how the hell do you think they are going to vote? Even Jeremy Corbyn, the supposed leader of the labour party is living a lie. He has been anti-EU all his life and now suddenly he is all for it, what a load of carp. Both the IFS and the OECD have direct benefits to staying in, and their opinions are biased and should be disregarded. You need to look at the opinions of previously respected people who have no agenda and only want the best for the COUNTRY, not themselves! And this is NOT the governor of the bank of England, who isn't even British.

I see where you're coming from now.
Any person or institution in favour of remaining are

biased and should be disregarded

And anybody wanting Brexit

have no agenda and only want the best for the COUNTRY

Who do you have in mind when you say this.

You need to look at the opinions of previously respected people

 

[andyb]

As I said before I think everyone should be free to make their own decision on this

We are free to make our own decisions Adam, nobody's forcing you to vote one way or another.

Unfortunately for Corbyn the likes of Tony Blair (who's done very well out of the EU since leaving office, financially, on a personal level) introduced this idea of shipping in immigrant voters who traditionally vote for left wing parties,

How has Blair done well out of the EU since leaving office? I'm not saying he hasn't, just that I'm not aware of it.

and the notion that anyone who is against immigration is a "racist" and/or a "bigot".

Aren't they? What other reason could there be?

 

[Adam W]

We are free to make our own decisions Adam, nobody's forcing you to vote one way or another.

I never used the word "forcing", Andy, but everyone in favour of staying in the EU has an unsubstantiated prediction of doom and gloom if we leave - war, recession, an end to foreign holidays, trade embargoes... We've got Obama coming over and telling us we'll be at the back of the queue when it comes to trade deals, companies such as Siemens, Rolls Royce and Airbus insinuating to its staff their jobs will be at risk if we leave.

How has Blair done well out of the EU since leaving office? I'm not saying he hasn't, just that I'm not aware of it.

Hours after leaving office he was given a role as peace envoy to the middle east, representing the EU; off the back of that he's secured numerous lucrative foreign business deals for himself.

Aren't they? What other reason could there be?

Seriously? You can't think of any reasons why it might be a bad idea to try to squeeze an additional population the size of Liverpool into an already crowded country every year, other than one person might have a problem with another person's skin tone? How about strain on the NHS, schools, transport, power stations, a lack of space, rising accommodation costs, towns segregated into individual enclaves? You can bully British people into "integrating" by calling them names, but it's a lot harder to make immigrants integrate.

 

[andyb]

I never used the word "forcing", Andy, but everyone in favour of staying in the EU has an unsubstantiated prediction of doom and gloom if we leave - war, recession, an end to foreign holidays, trade embargoes... We've got Obama coming over and telling us we'll be at the back of the queue when it comes to trade deals, companies such as Siemens, Rolls Royce and Airbus insinuating to its staff their jobs will be at risk if we leave.

You did say pressured though Adam, and intimated that you weren't free to make your own decision.
Both side are stupidly predicting doom and gloom but war has only been mentioned by the outers, along with Hitler, Napoleon and others. Recession is a very real possibility but we could live with that, we've had plenty before. Nobody to my mind has mentioned an end to foreign holidays or trade embargoes. All Obama did was tell the truth, ie the US is already negotiating a trade deal with the EU and the UK would have to come after that. Do you really think that America would put us first? Siemens, Rolls Royce, Airbus and any company are entitled to voice their opinion on how a change to market conditions would affect them. I'm sure that if they thought they would do better with the UK outside the EU they would say so. Would you have the same problem with that?

Hours after leaving office he was given a role as peace envoy to the middle east, representing the EU; off the back of that he's secured numerous lucrative foreign business deals for himself.

Tony Blair's role as a peace envoy was a UN position.
See what you've done? you've got me defending someone I loath.:veryangry2:

Seriously? You can't think of any reasons why it might be a bad idea to try to squeeze an additional population the size of Liverpool into an already crowded country every year, other than one person might have a problem with another person's skin tone? How about strain on the NHS, schools, transport, power stations, a lack of space, rising accommodation costs, towns segregated into individual enclaves? You can bully British people into "integrating" by calling them names, but it's a lot harder to make immigrants integrate.

I can think of several reasons to have a debate on immigration. Your post just said ''the notion that anyone who is against immigration is a "racist" and/or a "bigot".''

 

[Octopus]

The biggest reason the big companies want the UK to stay in is so that they can still "divert" profits to a lower country that charges a lower tax band - such as Luxembourg.

 

[andyb]

The biggest reason the big companies want the UK to stay in is so that they can still "divert" profits to a lower country that charges a lower tax band - such as Luxembourg.

I don't think it's an EU thing Murdoch. Companies all round the world do that. Didn't Cameron block an EU initiative a couple of years ago to do with the EU trying to stop tax loopholes?
I'd go as far as to say it's probably the opposite, the mainly millionaire Tories wanting out want less regulation so they can hoard their money and pay no tax.

 

[Adam W]

You did say pressured though Adam, and intimated that you weren't free to make your own decision.

There's a difference between "pressuring" someone to do something - making them feel obliged to do it, and "forcing" them to do something, where they have no option.
It wasn't "the company" sending letters to employees warning them to vote 'in', it was a person working on behalf of that company. Maybe the CEO or managing director. I expect they could find reasons for either vote if it suited them, but in either case I don't feel it's appropriate to be telling employees how to use their vote as if the company owns them.

Both side are stupidly predicting doom and gloom but war has only been mentioned by the outers, along with Hitler, Napoleon and others.

Actually it was David Cameron who mentioned that.

Tony Blair's role as a peace envoy was a UN position.

It wasn't just the UN, it was several organisations, but it's doubtful that Tony Blair would have been given the position if he hadn't been so pro-Europe.

I can think of several reasons to have a debate on immigration. Your post just said ''the notion that anyone who is against immigration is a "racist" and/or a "bigot".''

No it didn't 'just' say that, it said

"Unfortunately for Corbyn the likes of Tony Blair (who's done very well out of the EU since leaving office, financially, on a personal level) introduced this idea of shipping in immigrant voters who traditionally vote for left wing parties, and the notion that anyone who is against immigration is a "racist" and/or a "bigot".

Corbyn seems to be being told which side to support based on Labour's previous ways of securing votes, ie "vote Labour otherwise you're a bigot". Remember Gillian Duffy? She challenged Gordon Brown on issues which were of concern to her, and he simply dismissed her as "bigoted".