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Discuss EU Brexit - How will you vote given the latest "news" in the Electricians Chat - Off Topic Chat area at ElectriciansForums.net
OP
Dcf
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
scaremonger about the unknown bits to the general public.
a blatantly biased media making all sorts of misinformation up(at best)
the promise of jam with your tea if you stay but with no firm details until you vote how you are told.
oh aye the irony isn't lost on me.
diamond dave is up till 5am getting johnny foreigner told and then comes back to tell us we are better off in?wtf is that about?
sounds to me like its a done deal whatever way it goes.
big boris signs as the exit team bogeyman.staged?wwe staged.
the same boris who wants to run a water viaduct from scotland to the "breadbasket"of the south east of england as one of his crackpot ideas.
as a voter I'm undecided still,but if we do exit i agree that there will not be a EU to be outside of anyway.
the parallels are quite uncanny.
scaremonger about the unknown bits to the general public.
a blatantly biased media making all sorts of misinformation up(at best)
the promise of jam with your tea if you stay but with no firm details until you vote how you are told.
oh aye the irony isn't lost on me.
diamond dave is up till 5am getting johnny foreigner told and then comes back to tell us we are better off in?wtf is that about?
sounds to me like its a done deal whatever way it goes.
big boris signs as the exit team bogeyman.staged?wwe staged.
the same boris who wants to run a water viaduct from scotland to the "breadbasket"of the south east of england as one of his crackpot ideas.
as a voter I'm undecided still,but if we do exit i agree that there will not be a EU to be outside of anyway.
OP
YoungScud
OP
YoungScud
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
By the way, just to draw another, and very appropriate parallel with the Scottish referendum, one of the worst examples of fearmongering was the claim that the only way Scotland could stay in the EU was by voting No. That could look pretty hollow soon. Anyhoo, I picked this up elsewhere:
Mythbusters - Richard Corbett
Read it and pooh pooh it.
By the way, just to draw another, and very appropriate parallel with the Scottish referendum, one of the worst examples of fearmongering was the claim that the only way Scotland could stay in the EU was by voting No. That could look pretty hollow soon. Anyhoo, I picked this up elsewhere:
Mythbusters - Richard Corbett
Read it and pooh pooh it.
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- 1,766
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
It was Margaret Thatcher who said that being in Europe hadn’t made the French any less French and on this she was right -– being in Europe hasn’t made us any less British either! is bollox in my opinion.
Ive read it as well and Tels right. Anything that ends like this:
It was Margaret Thatcher who said that being in Europe hadn’t made the French any less French and on this she was right -– being in Europe hasn’t made us any less British either! is bollox in my opinion.
OP
Barry White
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
or Ronnie Corbet
:21:
I read it too,Better all change our votes to stay cos nobody will buy or sell us owt if we arnt in Europe. Hmm I think not. Goverments are better at ground level not Brussels and the numbers of beurocrats may be fewer than leeds council but they have more say. Its the power that counts and we need it back:hurray:
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
adolph hitler must be laughing his face off. a united europe ruled by germany.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLHGTJjHXLo
adolph hitler must be laughing his face off. a united europe ruled by germany.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLHGTJjHXLo
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
This is more like it, where have you been all day we've had some right odd Europeans on here today.
OP
YoungScud
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
So, I win my bet with a mate. I guaranteed the responses would be rebuttal without any actual rebuttal. Not one single factual detail.
So, I win my bet with a mate. I guaranteed the responses would be rebuttal without any actual rebuttal. Not one single factual detail.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
well I wouldn't get too excited, if he's a jock as well he won't pay up.
OP
YoungScud
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Touche
Touche
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- 10,616
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
I'm undecided whether to vote 'undecided' in this pole or not. I haven't the foggist on if its better to stay or leave, so I'm interested in anything that can make me decide either way. Have to say not been influenced by this thread, to make my decision. So hopefully the discussion will continue, providing this link to prompt sensible arguments;
UK EU exit would be global economy 'shock' - G20 leaders - BBC News
And it's not just been reported on the BBC.
I'm undecided whether to vote 'undecided' in this pole or not. I haven't the foggist on if its better to stay or leave, so I'm interested in anything that can make me decide either way. Have to say not been influenced by this thread, to make my decision. So hopefully the discussion will continue, providing this link to prompt sensible arguments;
UK EU exit would be global economy 'shock' - G20 leaders - BBC News
And it's not just been reported on the BBC.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Scaremongering from a bloke who has just been found to be manipulating the truth and figures regarding the NHS -YEP gonna believe anything this 'IN' campaigner has to say on the matter, uncertainty always causes financial ripples as has been the case with the Euro etc but it strange all those who told us we should join the Euro are now campaigning to stay in the EU - had we gone with their rock solid advice before then we would have been in a real bad position economically now, its been outside the failing Euro that protected us from alot of the recent recession. So sorry when I say I will not listen to the advice of those that would have brought our country even further to its knees had we followed there advice before...
Scaremongering from a bloke who has just been found to be manipulating the truth and figures regarding the NHS -YEP gonna believe anything this 'IN' campaigner has to say on the matter, uncertainty always causes financial ripples as has been the case with the Euro etc but it strange all those who told us we should join the Euro are now campaigning to stay in the EU - had we gone with their rock solid advice before then we would have been in a real bad position economically now, its been outside the failing Euro that protected us from alot of the recent recession. So sorry when I say I will not listen to the advice of those that would have brought our country even further to its knees had we followed there advice before...
OP
Octopus
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Scaremongering as usual from the BBC!
The reason that the EU IS STILL in RECESSION/low growth is that they had decided to keep the Euro. If the Greeks, Spanish, etc had left in 2012, used their "old" currencies, they would have ALL have been into decent growth by now.
As the Euro zone is still under pressure, this is probably the same "shock" that the G20 are thinking about.
AND if the US Dollar and Chinese Yen were allowed to float properly on the world exchanges - that would produce a shock too.
Scaremongering as usual from the BBC!
The reason that the EU IS STILL in RECESSION/low growth is that they had decided to keep the Euro. If the Greeks, Spanish, etc had left in 2012, used their "old" currencies, they would have ALL have been into decent growth by now.
As the Euro zone is still under pressure, this is probably the same "shock" that the G20 are thinking about.
AND if the US Dollar and Chinese Yen were allowed to float properly on the world exchanges - that would produce a shock too.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
That's not scaremongering Murdoch, it's called reporting.
All the BBC has done here is report on a statement issued by the finance leaders of the G20, they also give coverage of Farage's reply.
You can claim that the G20 leaders are scare scaremongering if you want but not the BBC, or would you be happier if the BBC only reported the exit side of the argument?
That's not scaremongering Murdoch, it's called reporting.
All the BBC has done here is report on a statement issued by the finance leaders of the G20, they also give coverage of Farage's reply.
You can claim that the G20 leaders are scare scaremongering if you want but not the BBC, or would you be happier if the BBC only reported the exit side of the argument?
OP
Octopus
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Hum..... its scaremongering. As my response outlined the other examples could be used.....
Hum..... its scaremongering. As my response outlined the other examples could be used.....
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Hum..... have it your way then :banghead:
Hum..... have it your way then :banghead:
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
You are aware of course that the good old beeb receives funding from the EU ?, as such it is not allowed to criticise the EU directly due to this funding, do a search for BBC EU funding while some info is from the "Torygraph" and the likes of spectator etc. it was also brought up by Farage in the EU parliament a few years ago, and even admitted by the beeb due to FOI requests.
So much for impartiality then
the beeb are bought and bribed to spin the pro-EU/establishment line.
You are aware of course that the good old beeb receives funding from the EU ?, as such it is not allowed to criticise the EU directly due to this funding, do a search for BBC EU funding while some info is from the "Torygraph" and the likes of spectator etc. it was also brought up by Farage in the EU parliament a few years ago, and even admitted by the beeb due to FOI requests.
So much for impartiality then
the beeb are bought and bribed to spin the pro-EU/establishment line.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
The BBC is not allowed to criticize the EU? that's just not true is it? Where do you get such nonsense from? Do you think that the BBC would suppress a bad story on the EU because they received some money from them? If you honestly believe that then I know there is nothing I or anyone can say to make you see sense.
Now if you want to discuss editorial censorship due to funding received then you need to look no further than the paper you are quoting to make your point, The Daily Telegraph, and their reporting (or lack of) of the HSBC scandal last year.
You are aware of course that the good old beeb receives funding from the EU ?, as such it is not allowed to criticise the EU directly due to this funding, do a search for BBC EU funding while some info is from the "Torygraph" and the likes of spectator etc. it was also brought up by Farage in the EU parliament a few years ago, and even admitted by the beeb due to FOI requests.
So much for impartiality then
The BBC is not allowed to criticize the EU? that's just not true is it? Where do you get such nonsense from? Do you think that the BBC would suppress a bad story on the EU because they received some money from them? If you honestly believe that then I know there is nothing I or anyone can say to make you see sense.
Now if you want to discuss editorial censorship due to funding received then you need to look no further than the paper you are quoting to make your point, The Daily Telegraph, and their reporting (or lack of) of the HSBC scandal last year.
OP
Octopus
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Thing is there is reporting the news and keeping it balanced AND reporting the news:
BBC link
Home - BBC News
Big prominent position
Sky News:
The Latest News from the UK and Around the World | Sky News
Not quite so prominent!
And its all very well for the G20 to make statements like this but where was there warning about the 2007 crash?
Thing is there is reporting the news and keeping it balanced AND reporting the news:
BBC link
Home - BBC News
Big prominent position
Sky News:
The Latest News from the UK and Around the World | Sky News
Not quite so prominent!
And its all very well for the G20 to make statements like this but where was there warning about the 2007 crash?
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
There is other info out there on this subject the beeb will not criticise the EU directly because it is conditional on receiving said funding, the same goes for any other organisation that also receives funding from the EU
Try and find one piece of "reporting" by the beeb that openly criticises the EU then, you won't because they don't, sure they will quote Farage or someone else who does, but they are very selective with reporting.
Ps. I don't subscribe to the Torygraph or the Daily fail either, nor the Guardian for that matter, and The likes of Sky news is just as bad.
There is other info out there on this subject
the beeb will not criticise the EU directly because it is conditional on receiving said funding, the same goes for any other organisation that also receives funding from the EUTry and find one piece of "reporting" by the beeb that openly criticises the EU then, you won't because they don't, sure they will quote Farage or someone else who does, but they are very selective with reporting.
Ps. I don't subscribe to the Torygraph or the Daily fail either, nor the Guardian for that matter, and The likes of Sky news is just as bad.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
I don't see a lot of difference Murdoch really.
But why is it that you see it as BBC bias and not Sky bias? If I was 'looking' for biased reporting to defend my view I could say that foreign owned Sky was biased in its reporting of the pro EU view for the very sane reason that you are giving for claiming that the BBC is biased.
What you seem to be saying here is that Sky set the debate and if the BBC do not copy them then that proves their biased.
I don't see a lot of difference Murdoch really.
But why is it that you see it as BBC bias and not Sky bias? If I was 'looking' for biased reporting to defend my view I could say that foreign owned Sky was biased in its reporting of the pro EU view for the very sane reason that you are giving for claiming that the BBC is biased.
What you seem to be saying here is that Sky set the debate and if the BBC do not copy them then that proves their biased.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
I doubt I'll find one, I also doubt I'll find one praising it either.
Nor should the BBC criticize the EU, or any other organization for that matter, it shouldn't praise them either. It's the BBCs job to report and not give opinions.
I doubt I'll find one, I also doubt I'll find one praising it either.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
The majority of the media be it BBC or Sky is biased to the EU - take the slogan been used to confuse the public. 'We are stronger in Europe' - this is incorrect to say as we are part of Europe what they should say is we are stronger in the EU but it doesn't have the same grab tbh - they are doing their best to use misleading slogans and incorrect statistics to make the IN capaign look look the only option.
The media has a duty to report factually yet they are not batting an eyelid to deliberate attempts to sway using incorrect quotes.
Sorry, I'll correct the slogan for them, the EU would be stronger with us part of it not the other way around, we would be very capable of becoming the same world leading trade country that we were once before signing up to this power grabbing machine.
The majority of the media be it BBC or Sky is biased to the EU - take the slogan been used to confuse the public. 'We are stronger in Europe' - this is incorrect to say as we are part of Europe what they should say is we are stronger in the EU but it doesn't have the same grab tbh - they are doing their best to use misleading slogans and incorrect statistics to make the IN capaign look look the only option.
The media has a duty to report factually yet they are not batting an eyelid to deliberate attempts to sway using incorrect quotes.
Sorry, I'll correct the slogan for them, the EU would be stronger with us part of it not the other way around, we would be very capable of becoming the same world leading trade country that we were once before signing up to this power grabbing machine.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
If you believe anything the boys bu**erring corp has to say then I have a bridge for sale
The mainstream media in this country is owned by about a handful of "big corporations" each with their own agenda, I very much doubt their interests coincide with ours, it is only their interests they are looking out for.
The EU is a politicians club, run by and for failed politicians of all flavours for their own selfish reasons, the "plebs" of all countries in this club don't even register as a secondary consideration, it is not what is best for us, only what is best for them.
Love Europe, hate the EU
If you believe anything the boys bu**erring corp has to say then I have a bridge for sale
The mainstream media in this country is owned by about a handful of "big corporations" each with their own agenda, I very much doubt their interests coincide with ours, it is only their interests they are looking out for.
The EU is a politicians club, run by and for failed politicians of all flavours for their own selfish reasons, the "plebs" of all countries in this club don't even register as a secondary consideration, it is not what is best for us, only what is best for them.
Love Europe, hate the EU
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
I never believe anything, anyone says.
That includes the BBC.
If you believe anything the boys bu**erring corp has to say then I have a bridge for sale
I never believe anything, anyone says.
That includes the BBC.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
The thing is with this so called club, it predominantly suits big multinational corporations, it screws the little guys over, for instance the red tape and multitude of regulations suits the big corps because in the economies of scale they can afford to implement the various directives fairly easily, where as the smaller firms struggle to compete.
Again mass migration from say Eastern Europe (shengen) suits big companies by lowering the wages across the board, the German multinationals agree with Merkels current open door policy for this very reason, sod the indigenous German workers.
A game of "divide and conquer" is afoot, in that you have the so called "lefties" decrying anyone against the status quo as right wing fascists, where in reality it is in none of the common peoples interests.
The Yanks love it too, because they can easily manipulate one monolithic block with the invariable "horse trading" that goes on behind closed doors to suit big businesses on both sides of the Atlantic and again screw the little people.
I am actually surprised that Labour (in this country) support this policy, not that I believe in the left/right paradigm both main political parties in this country are two cheeks of the same arse as far as I am concerned.
The thing is with this so called club, it predominantly suits big multinational corporations, it screws the little guys over, for instance the red tape and multitude of regulations suits the big corps because in the economies of scale they can afford to implement the various directives fairly easily, where as the smaller firms struggle to compete.
Again mass migration from say Eastern Europe (shengen) suits big companies by lowering the wages across the board, the German multinationals agree with Merkels current open door policy for this very reason, sod the indigenous German workers.
A game of "divide and conquer" is afoot, in that you have the so called "lefties" decrying anyone against the status quo as right wing fascists, where in reality it is in none of the common peoples interests.
The Yanks love it too, because they can easily manipulate one monolithic block with the invariable "horse trading" that goes on behind closed doors to suit big businesses on both sides of the Atlantic and again screw the little people.
I am actually surprised that Labour (in this country) support this policy, not that I believe in the left/right paradigm
both main political parties in this country are two cheeks of the same arse as far as I am concerned.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
The story is also being reported on other world media sites, with some suggesting Osborne insisting on the subject being discussed by the G20.
Whatever you slant on its reporting, there's no hiding the fact, that the other G20 leaders have a detrimental view on the Brexit. Whether you can draw any conclusions on that is up for discussion. All I would say, as an electrician, I think those financial leaders would have a more opinionated reasons than any I could give.
Not quite sure you've made a point there Murdoch. Both sites report the story, in different parts of their 'Home' page, the BBC leads with the story and Sky has it second (currently 1525hrs 27/02/16). The BBC reports on a Unicorn rescued in California and Sky on a goose been shot in a quiet village :rolleyes2:
The story is also being reported on other world media sites, with some suggesting Osborne insisting on the subject being discussed by the G20.
Whatever you slant on its reporting, there's no hiding the fact, that the other G20 leaders have a detrimental view on the Brexit. Whether you can draw any conclusions on that is up for discussion. All I would say, as an electrician, I think those financial leaders would have a more opinionated reasons than any I could give.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Where Labour screwed up was mainly down to open door policy and the more the merrier, the thing is if you flood your country with immigrants then let them vote they would invariably vote left wing as this supports the very reason they were allowed to settle and hopefully bring their families, the more in the better your left wing establishment survives, now this has and does work as shown in other countries but the problem they didn't contemplate on was the EU also has the same internal policy and with the poorer nations joining it was almost a giant magnet attracting them to the UK as wages, child benefit etc could be several times that of their homelands - did the EU help us with this influx? NO! ... then merkel made a fatal decision during the syria crisis and saw the same pressures put on her own country as she had watched happen to us, what did she do, told us to accept our share to which we refused, the issue we have now if we stay in and this is just on immigration alone is that all these millions of mostly young male 'refugees' will end up getting at some point citizenship then they are free to walk across our borders. Add this to the lifting of visa requirements for turkey and we have now just added 80million people to the free movement list all from poorer backgrounds that are looking to settle in a country not for safety but for the best return in benefits and lifestyle (I would do the same in their shoes) ... you think its bad with Calais now wait until we have to let them in because they are EU citizens.
Yes France may chuck the border boundary back in our face but closing the door to 300 000 + and choosing who comes in would be worth leaving on its own - oh and we would be 55million a day better of to bolster our borders, sort out the NHS, rebuild schools, prisons etc etc and not fund the EU's corrupt financial gamble.
Where Labour screwed up was mainly down to open door policy and the more the merrier, the thing is if you flood your country with immigrants then let them vote they would invariably vote left wing as this supports the very reason they were allowed to settle and hopefully bring their families, the more in the better your left wing establishment survives, now this has and does work as shown in other countries but the problem they didn't contemplate on was the EU also has the same internal policy and with the poorer nations joining it was almost a giant magnet attracting them to the UK as wages, child benefit etc could be several times that of their homelands - did the EU help us with this influx? NO! ... then merkel made a fatal decision during the syria crisis and saw the same pressures put on her own country as she had watched happen to us, what did she do, told us to accept our share to which we refused, the issue we have now if we stay in and this is just on immigration alone is that all these millions of mostly young male 'refugees' will end up getting at some point citizenship then they are free to walk across our borders. Add this to the lifting of visa requirements for turkey and we have now just added 80million people to the free movement list all from poorer backgrounds that are looking to settle in a country not for safety but for the best return in benefits and lifestyle (I would do the same in their shoes) ... you think its bad with Calais now wait until we have to let them in because they are EU citizens.
Yes France may chuck the border boundary back in our face but closing the door to 300 000 + and choosing who comes in would be worth leaving on its own - oh and we would be 55million a day better of to bolster our borders, sort out the NHS, rebuild schools, prisons etc etc and not fund the EU's corrupt financial gamble.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
For sure migration is a problem or concern, exasperated by the Syrian crisis. I'm not so sure though that would necessarily stop on a Brexit. Australia it appears suffering high immigration levels according to former foreign minister Bob Carr, no chance of a change for us then?
Should a Bexit decision be just made on migration?
For sure migration is a problem or concern, exasperated by the Syrian crisis. I'm not so sure though that would necessarily stop on a Brexit. Australia it appears suffering high immigration levels according to former foreign minister Bob Carr, no chance of a change for us then?
Should a Bexit decision be just made on migration?
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
When it is crippling your country and services you really have to ask that question, everything from your childs education to access to healthcare and the driving down of wages across the country then YES ...should it be this way NO!... but even looking at the bigger picture and what we gain staying in, tbh there is nothing that entices me anymore, nothing we have now in the EU couldn't be the same if not better, the EU is a big ball and chain to our world trade and the minute we leave the minute we become a strong trade body again far out weighing the self interested EU system that blocks our world trade to ensure we source from within the EU boosting its own ability to become a State.
The argument is that if we leave we hold a better hand and can negotiate better deals because we no longer are tied to the internal EU trade rules and limitations, I cannot understand when they use the argument about trade when if they look at the rule book the EU has imposed on us then its a no brainer we would be better off out of it.
When it is crippling your country and services you really have to ask that question, everything from your childs education to access to healthcare and the driving down of wages across the country then YES ...should it be this way NO!... but even looking at the bigger picture and what we gain staying in, tbh there is nothing that entices me anymore, nothing we have now in the EU couldn't be the same if not better, the EU is a big ball and chain to our world trade and the minute we leave the minute we become a strong trade body again far out weighing the self interested EU system that blocks our world trade to ensure we source from within the EU boosting its own ability to become a State.
The argument is that if we leave we hold a better hand and can negotiate better deals because we no longer are tied to the internal EU trade rules and limitations, I cannot understand when they use the argument about trade when if they look at the rule book the EU has imposed on us then its a no brainer we would be better off out of it.
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
There's lots of statements you make there Darkwood, emotive stuff, but I'm not convinced they are based in factual evidence. Such like as Murdoch suggested the BBC was scaremonger, you could be accused of the same?
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Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
This is scarremongering :-
It is better/stronger for us to be in than out - As a nation we were stronger before joining the EU, our powers to govern our own laws have been eroded, our say who we trade with has had limitations forced on us, our ability to control our own borders is no longer ours, considering the only time we were not part of the EU we were a stronger self governing nation, how can it be said it is now better to stay in when recent history favours us been on our own.
We are stronger in Europe!- Like I just mentioned, this is a misleading campaign header as we are part of Europe whether we vote in or out, its sole aim is to confuse the electorate in their favour.
A leap into the darkness- Again putting negative spin on it making it sound like we are effectively jumping off a cliff, nothing will change immediately and laws and trading agreements will be phased in over an estimated 2 yr period, no we won't stop trading, we will carry on as normal and we have a better hand to do a trade deal with as we then are open to free trade to the rest of the world so the EU would have to compete for our trade where as now we are forced to close trade and limited world trade.
France would remove its UK border line in Calais- So what we have to deal with the 3000 or 6000 depending on your source but the UK can effectively stop 300000 immgrant from the EU on day one (although it would be phased in), I think with the 55million per day we save I don't see a problem to dealing with 6000 illegal immigrants.
The points I make are factual, we are restricted from trading with the world, we have no control over many of our laws or our border, steps are quite far on now and would see Turkey given Visa free access to travel to the EU within years(You can check this out), yes this isn't a full member status but its basically the same regarding the effects that adding 80million people from a poorer nation will have, part speculation yes but partly we have seen what happens when poorer nations join so I have the evidence weighing in my favour. When immigrants settle in a country they are normally given EU citizenship within 2 yrs this effectively means all these economical migrants among the refugees would be free to then come to England, claims that Germany is vetting people and sending those home who are not refugee's is easy to say but almost impossible to enact as you cannot prove without doubt where someone has come from especially as they have no papers on them.
To say its risky to leave the EU is founded on little but speculation because we haven't been witness to this ever happening, more so it would be correct to say its riskier to remain in the EU as there is 40+ yrs of evidence of the effects this has had on the UK
So I put it back to you that I am giving a personal opinion based on hard facts where as the IN campaign is all speculation,thus any negative headlining about leaving is speculation thus scaremongering.
The BBC are biased as they rarely reports on EU meetings and world leaders intervention on this subject but in the past week they are grabbing every story they find with a few minutes coverage on each to prop up the IN campaign while only showing sound bites of the OUT campaign.
If we left the only losers are the big corporates, the bankers and all the other top establishment who are now getting worried there comfy lifestyles are under threat, no doubt we will be bombarded by their own propaganda to keep them living the high life.
This is scarremongering :-
It is better/stronger for us to be in than out - As a nation we were stronger before joining the EU, our powers to govern our own laws have been eroded, our say who we trade with has had limitations forced on us, our ability to control our own borders is no longer ours, considering the only time we were not part of the EU we were a stronger self governing nation, how can it be said it is now better to stay in when recent history favours us been on our own.
We are stronger in Europe!- Like I just mentioned, this is a misleading campaign header as we are part of Europe whether we vote in or out, its sole aim is to confuse the electorate in their favour.
A leap into the darkness- Again putting negative spin on it making it sound like we are effectively jumping off a cliff, nothing will change immediately and laws and trading agreements will be phased in over an estimated 2 yr period, no we won't stop trading, we will carry on as normal and we have a better hand to do a trade deal with as we then are open to free trade to the rest of the world so the EU would have to compete for our trade where as now we are forced to close trade and limited world trade.
France would remove its UK border line in Calais- So what we have to deal with the 3000 or 6000 depending on your source but the UK can effectively stop 300000 immgrant from the EU on day one (although it would be phased in), I think with the 55million per day we save I don't see a problem to dealing with 6000 illegal immigrants.
The points I make are factual, we are restricted from trading with the world, we have no control over many of our laws or our border, steps are quite far on now and would see Turkey given Visa free access to travel to the EU within years(You can check this out), yes this isn't a full member status but its basically the same regarding the effects that adding 80million people from a poorer nation will have, part speculation yes but partly we have seen what happens when poorer nations join so I have the evidence weighing in my favour. When immigrants settle in a country they are normally given EU citizenship within 2 yrs this effectively means all these economical migrants among the refugees would be free to then come to England, claims that Germany is vetting people and sending those home who are not refugee's is easy to say but almost impossible to enact as you cannot prove without doubt where someone has come from especially as they have no papers on them.
To say its risky to leave the EU is founded on little but speculation because we haven't been witness to this ever happening, more so it would be correct to say its riskier to remain in the EU as there is 40+ yrs of evidence of the effects this has had on the UK
So I put it back to you that I am giving a personal opinion based on hard facts where as the IN campaign is all speculation,thus any negative headlining about leaving is speculation thus scaremongering.
The BBC are biased as they rarely reports on EU meetings and world leaders intervention on this subject but in the past week they are grabbing every story they find with a few minutes coverage on each to prop up the IN campaign while only showing sound bites of the OUT campaign.
If we left the only losers are the big corporates, the bankers and all the other top establishment who are now getting worried there comfy lifestyles are under threat, no doubt we will be bombarded by their own propaganda to keep them living the high life.
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OP
YoungScud
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
" I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice."
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/this-terrifying-rupert-murdoch-quote-is-possibly-the-best-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet--WyMaFTE890x
" I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. 'That’s easy,' he replied. 'When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice."
http://indy100.independent.co.uk/article/this-terrifying-rupert-murdoch-quote-is-possibly-the-best-reason-to-stay-in-the-eu-yet--WyMaFTE890x
OP
YoungScud
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
The whole idea that the BBC should criticise any body, the EU included, would be in breach of its own editorial guidelines, Section 4.
4.2 PRINCIPLES4.2.1 We must do all we can to ensure that ‘controversial subjects’3 are treatedwith due impartiality in all our output.4.2.2 News in whatever form must be treated with due impartiality, giving dueweight to events, opinion and main strands of argument.4.2.3 We seek to provide a broad range of subject matter and perspectivesover an appropriate timeframe across our output as a whole.4.2.4 We are committed to reflecting a wide range of opinion across our outputas a whole and over an appropriate timeframe so that no significant strand ofthought is knowingly unreflected or under-represented.4.2.5 We exercise our editorial freedom to produce content about any subject,at any point on the spectrum of debate, as long as there are good editorialreasons for doing so.
It's not their place to criticise, but simply to present news as it comes. Now, I know what they received moderate funding for. I'm not going to do your research for you, but if you're genuinely interested in getting to the truth, you'll do better than reading the news media for your information. If you're not, nothing I can say will change your mind.
The whole idea that the BBC should criticise any body, the EU included, would be in breach of its own editorial guidelines, Section 4.
4.2 PRINCIPLES4.2.1 We must do all we can to ensure that ‘controversial subjects’3 are treatedwith due impartiality in all our output.4.2.2 News in whatever form must be treated with due impartiality, giving dueweight to events, opinion and main strands of argument.4.2.3 We seek to provide a broad range of subject matter and perspectivesover an appropriate timeframe across our output as a whole.4.2.4 We are committed to reflecting a wide range of opinion across our outputas a whole and over an appropriate timeframe so that no significant strand ofthought is knowingly unreflected or under-represented.4.2.5 We exercise our editorial freedom to produce content about any subject,at any point on the spectrum of debate, as long as there are good editorialreasons for doing so.
It's not their place to criticise, but simply to present news as it comes. Now, I know what they received moderate funding for. I'm not going to do your research for you, but if you're genuinely interested in getting to the truth, you'll do better than reading the news media for your information. If you're not, nothing I can say will change your mind.
- Reaction score
- 10,215
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Saw this the other night, young looking 16yr old girl stuns the benched IN campaigners by making an obvious point which seems to somehow allude them; until now.
[video=youtube;SPy8lW85EWU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPy8lW85EWU[/video]
Saw this the other night, young looking 16yr old girl stuns the benched IN campaigners by making an obvious point which seems to somehow allude them; until now.
[video=youtube;SPy8lW85EWU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPy8lW85EWU[/video]
- Reaction score
- 1,169
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Ok criticise was the wrong word to use on my part I should have said "slanted" or "bent" reporting perhaps ?, after all it was not so long ago the Scots accused the Beeb of the very same "dodgy reporting" during their referendum
The point still stands, the Beeb do a hatchet job on anything they are against, and spin their pet subjects in a favourable way, whilst they may not lie or be untruthful outright, they are very biased nevertheless, they either quote a piece out of context, omit certain aspects altogether, or sometimes the wording they use implies certain things, one of their favourites is the use of the word "regime" for any government the west disagrees with, I could go on.
It is not just the BBC that do this, I already said the other mainstream media is just as biased.
Ok criticise was the wrong word to use on my part
I should have said "slanted" or "bent" reporting perhaps ?, after all it was not so long ago the Scots accused the Beeb of the very same "dodgy reporting" during their referendum The point still stands, the Beeb do a hatchet job on anything they are against, and spin their pet subjects in a favourable way, whilst they may not lie or be untruthful outright, they are very biased nevertheless, they either quote a piece out of context, omit certain aspects altogether, or sometimes the wording they use implies certain things, one of their favourites is the use of the word "regime" for any government the west disagrees with, I could go on.
It is not just the BBC that do this, I already said the other mainstream media is just as biased.
OP
Octopus
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Remarkable for a 16 year old. Very articulate and nobody on the panel seemed to have a decent answer!
Remarkable for a 16 year old. Very articulate and nobody on the panel seemed to have a decent answer!
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Good to hear we'll not have to be waiting ages for a cuppa, but ......
Tories want to quit EU to 'scrap workers' right to paid holiday' | UK Politics | News | The Independent
Good to hear we'll not have to be waiting ages for a cuppa, but ......
Tories want to quit EU to 'scrap workers' right to paid holiday' | UK Politics | News | The Independent
OP
Octopus
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
from the link above
"Angela Eagle warned that EU-backed principles like paid holidays and equal pay were “on the ballot paper” in the In-Out referendum on 23 June.
Angela Eagle warned that EU-backed principles like paid holidays and equal pay were “on the ballot paper” in the In-Out referendum on 23 June.
Ms Eagle warned that many Conservatives who wanted to leave the bloc wanted to scrap the rights and said Labour voters would be key to the Remain vote."
and her evidence is?
from the link above
"Angela Eagle warned that EU-backed principles like paid holidays and equal pay were “on the ballot paper” in the In-Out referendum on 23 June.
Angela Eagle warned that EU-backed principles like paid holidays and equal pay were “on the ballot paper” in the In-Out referendum on 23 June.
Ms Eagle warned that many Conservatives who wanted to leave the bloc wanted to scrap the rights and said Labour voters would be key to the Remain vote."
and her evidence is?
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Mr Fiction asks for evidence :wink_smile:
Mr Fiction asks for evidence :wink_smile:
- Reaction score
- 1,207
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
She said nothing that I've not heard before and will surely hear over and over untill the referendum.
Help me out here Darkwood, what point did she make that has alluded people untill now?
She said nothing that I've not heard before and will surely hear over and over untill the referendum.
- Reaction score
- 10,215
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Alluded or refused to acknowledge is the same thing here, its one of many problems caused by EU regulations, been forced to accept any EU citizen and allow them to work without question has forced a situation where we have had to stem the flow elsewhere, this in effect has effected many of our services now finding themselves struggling to source the correct skills, its funny how when we joined the EU it was for a trade agreement only and little more but 40yrs down the line we now have surrended most of our laws and rights most of which would enable us to protect our own and our services, we now have the meddling Brussels using us as a cash cow and a open door job centre while turning a blind eye to the problems it is causing. The NHS is been raped of money which we the tax payer pay to use leaving us with lack of treatment, cutbacks and long waiting lists while we are supposed to be able to claim back the monies from any EU citizens country of origin yet you may want to find out how much of the money the NHS are owed from our member countries actually gets payed back to us - little if any, we are just been abused in every direction and there are those out there that refuse to acknowledge it or are just ignorant to it.
So many of the issues and problems blamed on who ever is in government stems from the deeper truth in that they have no powers to do anything about it but that doesn't reflect well to the electorate when your running an IN campaign.
Alluded or refused to acknowledge is the same thing here, its one of many problems caused by EU regulations, been forced to accept any EU citizen and allow them to work without question has forced a situation where we have had to stem the flow elsewhere, this in effect has effected many of our services now finding themselves struggling to source the correct skills, its funny how when we joined the EU it was for a trade agreement only and little more but 40yrs down the line we now have surrended most of our laws and rights most of which would enable us to protect our own and our services, we now have the meddling Brussels using us as a cash cow and a open door job centre while turning a blind eye to the problems it is causing. The NHS is been raped of money which we the tax payer pay to use leaving us with lack of treatment, cutbacks and long waiting lists while we are supposed to be able to claim back the monies from any EU citizens country of origin yet you may want to find out how much of the money the NHS are owed from our member countries actually gets payed back to us - little if any, we are just been abused in every direction and there are those out there that refuse to acknowledge it or are just ignorant to it.
So many of the issues and problems blamed on who ever is in government stems from the deeper truth in that they have no powers to do anything about it but that doesn't reflect well to the electorate when your running an IN campaign.
- Reaction score
- 10,616
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
As I said Darkwood, you make some good points, but I don't see where the facts are to support them. Not saying your making them up, but the IN & OUT camps both make various statements as fact, but I think the fact is nobody really knows what will happen if we leave, and no one knows what will happen if we stay in, but should of left. Both are a leap into the darkness.
Its difficult not to look back without using rose tinted specs, but Britain's economy faltered in the late sixties early seventies, when we then joined the EEC in 1973, when we probably had little choice not to.
Its a sad fact, but the big corporate's make big bucks, but that supplies the money for jobs, unless you believe in communism.
Still don't think migration is the be and end all of this referendum.
As I said Darkwood, you make some good points, but I don't see where the facts are to support them. Not saying your making them up, but the IN & OUT camps both make various statements as fact, but I think the fact is nobody really knows what will happen if we leave, and no one knows what will happen if we stay in, but should of left. Both are a leap into the darkness.
Its difficult not to look back without using rose tinted specs, but Britain's economy faltered in the late sixties early seventies, when we then joined the EEC in 1973, when we probably had little choice not to.
Its a sad fact, but the big corporate's make big bucks, but that supplies the money for jobs, unless you believe in communism.
Still don't think migration is the be and end all of this referendum.
- Reaction score
- 10,215
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Alot of the points I make are easily checked because we are already in the EU and we are experiencing the said issues now. Yes leaving has a certain amount of uncertainty but it more about dotting the i's and crossing the t's as appose to what the IN campaign make it out to be.
The EU is very scared of our exit and too bloody right too, if our trade is suddenly opened up to the rest of the world under our own deals without limits imposed then the EU has suddenly got competition and would have to offer a better deal to get our trade, a win win for us as we also increase trade with the rest of the world. It would cost the EU a lot both financially and its position as a world trader if we left, why should be be shackled just because there is an obvious air of uncertainty. It will however mean those in goverment would have to actually work harder for their salaries if we went alone and I'm not really uncomfortable with that idea at all.
I do agree with you, it shouldn't be all about migration but to the average joe bloggs on the street it is in a big problem in their eyes as it's out of control and it effects several areas of our daily lives unless like I mentioned earlier you're blessed with an area not 'yet' affected directly.
The vid' I posted of the young lass making a very valid point actually shows why camerons agreements albeit pointless ones in my mind cannot work, even if you restrict benefits for upto 4 yrs this will not slow down the influx at all, when your been payed 10x what you earn in your own country then that massive magnetic pull to the UK will continue to see immigration well beyond what we can cope with, if seeing the very heart of our society crumble isn't a good enough reason on its own then what is?
I'm not talking about things that may happen or may not, I talking about things that have happened already and are getting worse so you cannot say its scaremongering for me to express it.
You can even ask the IN crowd if immigration is too high for our infrastructure and services to cope with and they too agree it is, but here's is the crux of my argument which for some reason doesn't register to the IN crowd, the core basis of the EU is freedom of movement and that will never change, they have publically said this recently regarding our changes on the table and many times before, and while we keep our borders open to this free movement we are going to suffer for it, its not speculation, its happening and the evidence is everywhere. The 'ONLY' way to stop this massive influx is to take back control of our borders and to do that we have only one option, Brexit!
If there are any consequences of leaving which there probably will be initially then we will be 11billion pounds better off to help resolve it, by leaving we would slowly see our crippling services, education and housing catch up with our needs as we retake our borders and stem the flood to a managed trickle like before 1997 when restrictions on immigration were lifted as an exit present from Blair - but at least we know what level of immigration we can cope with and what is too much as we have many flow charts available that show immigration and its negative or positive effects.
Alot of the points I make are easily checked because we are already in the EU and we are experiencing the said issues now. Yes leaving has a certain amount of uncertainty but it more about dotting the i's and crossing the t's as appose to what the IN campaign make it out to be.
The EU is very scared of our exit and too bloody right too, if our trade is suddenly opened up to the rest of the world under our own deals without limits imposed then the EU has suddenly got competition and would have to offer a better deal to get our trade, a win win for us as we also increase trade with the rest of the world. It would cost the EU a lot both financially and its position as a world trader if we left, why should be be shackled just because there is an obvious air of uncertainty. It will however mean those in goverment would have to actually work harder for their salaries if we went alone and I'm not really uncomfortable with that idea at all.
I do agree with you, it shouldn't be all about migration but to the average joe bloggs on the street it is in a big problem in their eyes as it's out of control and it effects several areas of our daily lives unless like I mentioned earlier you're blessed with an area not 'yet' affected directly.
The vid' I posted of the young lass making a very valid point actually shows why camerons agreements albeit pointless ones in my mind cannot work, even if you restrict benefits for upto 4 yrs this will not slow down the influx at all, when your been payed 10x what you earn in your own country then that massive magnetic pull to the UK will continue to see immigration well beyond what we can cope with, if seeing the very heart of our society crumble isn't a good enough reason on its own then what is?
I'm not talking about things that may happen or may not, I talking about things that have happened already and are getting worse so you cannot say its scaremongering for me to express it.
You can even ask the IN crowd if immigration is too high for our infrastructure and services to cope with and they too agree it is, but here's is the crux of my argument which for some reason doesn't register to the IN crowd, the core basis of the EU is freedom of movement and that will never change, they have publically said this recently regarding our changes on the table and many times before, and while we keep our borders open to this free movement we are going to suffer for it, its not speculation, its happening and the evidence is everywhere. The 'ONLY' way to stop this massive influx is to take back control of our borders and to do that we have only one option, Brexit!
If there are any consequences of leaving which there probably will be initially then we will be 11billion pounds better off to help resolve it, by leaving we would slowly see our crippling services, education and housing catch up with our needs as we retake our borders and stem the flood to a managed trickle like before 1997 when restrictions on immigration were lifted as an exit present from Blair - but at least we know what level of immigration we can cope with and what is too much as we have many flow charts available that show immigration and its negative or positive effects.
OP
Octopus
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
and Mr Fiction mk2 offers nothing.....
and Mr Fiction mk2 offers nothing.....
Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"
Yes we agree it is a problem but there are different ways to address the problem. One of them is to use the extra estimated 3% onto our GDP to build the bloody infrastructure required...That is jobs and cash for us all right there. And if we build with the future in mind (we used to at least try to do this) then we can all benefit.
As for the final paragraph.....Im afraid that is just rubbish - We are in the middle of politically motivated austerity - or mainly the way of tackling the austerity is politically motivated. For example bedroom tax or whatever we call it....Not saved more than a nats -------- in terms of money....but look at the human cost. Next up is cutting sickness benefit by £30 per week. The nhs is underfunded and on its arse...how do we deal with it ? Shall we put a penny or 2 pence on income tax.....nah that would be a vote looser lets just let it fail and let our mates in private healthcare firms make us all some easy cash.....Councils starved of cash revert to shutting down special needs schools, pensioner clubs ect ect ect.....Does the small savings make a difference to our national debt ? Nope not even a bit of it - So with all that said NO I do not think leaving the EU is going to make any government (Unless it is left wing labour) even consider restoring these services, They are cut for the sake of it - privatised for the hell of it - often with no real savings due to the ongoing cost just moved to other area's of national expenditure.
Oh and one last point - there is no such thing as a free trade agreement - even now every country that enjoy's this "free trade with the EU" must contribute to the upkeep of the EU - yes we run a trade deficit with them - BUT they beat our numbers ten fold - so the real question is 60 million shoppers or 600 million shoppers....So in essence once we leave we will still be paying for french farmers to not grow crops next year, We will still be paying for the EU parliament, We will still have to comply with ALL EU consumer laws and manufacturing standards ect ect IF we wish to sell there that is. There is no doubt that SOME countries in the EU would feel the pinch if the UK left.....but so would we IF we are talking in terms of either reduced trade or tariffs. It makes me laugh all of the "well they all hate the uk anyway"...then on the other hand - "they will bend over backwards to accommodate us if we leave"....both can't be correct can they ?
Yes we agree it is a problem but there are different ways to address the problem. One of them is to use the extra estimated 3% onto our GDP to build the bloody infrastructure required...That is jobs and cash for us all right there. And if we build with the future in mind (we used to at least try to do this) then we can all benefit.
As for the final paragraph.....Im afraid that is just rubbish - We are in the middle of politically motivated austerity - or mainly the way of tackling the austerity is politically motivated. For example bedroom tax or whatever we call it....Not saved more than a nats -------- in terms of money....but look at the human cost. Next up is cutting sickness benefit by £30 per week. The nhs is underfunded and on its arse...how do we deal with it ? Shall we put a penny or 2 pence on income tax.....nah that would be a vote looser lets just let it fail and let our mates in private healthcare firms make us all some easy cash.....Councils starved of cash revert to shutting down special needs schools, pensioner clubs ect ect ect.....Does the small savings make a difference to our national debt ? Nope not even a bit of it - So with all that said NO I do not think leaving the EU is going to make any government (Unless it is left wing labour) even consider restoring these services, They are cut for the sake of it - privatised for the hell of it - often with no real savings due to the ongoing cost just moved to other area's of national expenditure.
Oh and one last point - there is no such thing as a free trade agreement - even now every country that enjoy's this "free trade with the EU" must contribute to the upkeep of the EU - yes we run a trade deficit with them - BUT they beat our numbers ten fold - so the real question is 60 million shoppers or 600 million shoppers....So in essence once we leave we will still be paying for french farmers to not grow crops next year, We will still be paying for the EU parliament, We will still have to comply with ALL EU consumer laws and manufacturing standards ect ect IF we wish to sell there that is. There is no doubt that SOME countries in the EU would feel the pinch if the UK left.....but so would we IF we are talking in terms of either reduced trade or tariffs. It makes me laugh all of the "well they all hate the uk anyway"...then on the other hand - "they will bend over backwards to accommodate us if we leave"....both can't be correct can they ?
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