Extraneous....Yes or No....

[somersetsparks]

Would seem to me that bonding should be carried out to the copper pipe source and supplementary bonding as per a normal installation. The shaver socket is incidentally, an isolating device, an earth leak from a plugged in shaver etc would not trigger an RCD. If the consumer units aren't fitted with RCD protection then I would replace or fit RCBO to all circuits. Earthing in flats can be problematical and an RCD should be the first line of defence against electrical shock.

I've always regarded an RCD as the last line of defence!

 

[IQ Electrical]

The poster said the bathroom was plumbed in copper. He needs to find the source of that. (may be from the DHW cylinder etc or Boiler) and put a main bonding to it IMHO

Why, how will it meet the definition of an extraneous-conductive part if it starts within the installation and ends within the installation?
Just bonding metalwork without it meeting the definition actually creates a danger during a fault!

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I've always regarded an RCD as the last line of defence!

Precisely!

 

[somersetsparks]

The answer is in the question, 0.18 megohms is well over what requires bonding! As per the strt of this thread, All I would do is have a look at the origin of the water supply or the as fits, someone will have them its only 3 years old! I would say something like 'The test can't be passed sir until I have checked some things on the drawings" to the person ordering the works.

 

[Cbigfoot]

The problem with these types of installation is that because they are sheltered accomodation then all the pipework disappears into boxings etc, therefore the origin can never be found. The Main water to the building will then porobably supply a manifold, which then goes away in Plastic etc. The Heating system & DHW is communal, the heating pipes to the flat are in Hep. These places are put up fast and cheap which leads me to assume plastic.

Manuals, yep checked those out, all rubbish, most as installed drawings missing, no spec to speak of!

It was clearly wired to 16th as only power circuits have RCD, nothing else, The RCD can only be used as addition protection as per section 7.

While the shaver socket is an isolating device, it does have a screw showing that is connected to the MET and was used to take a reading from. I was not implying that it would be the source of the shock risk.

 

[somersetsparks]

The problem with these types of installation is that because they are sheltered accomodation then all the pipework disappears into boxings etc, therefore the origin can never be found. The Main water to the building will then porobably supply a manifold, which then goes away in Plastic etc. The Heating system & DHW is communal, the heating pipes to the flat are in Hep. These places are put up fast and cheap which leads me to assume plastic.

Manuals, yep checked those out, all rubbish, most as installed drawings missing, no spec to speak of!

All bathroom ccts. Should still be supplementary bonded together or changed to be RCD protected, I believe.

It was clearly wired to 16th as only power circuits have RCD, nothing else, The RCD can only be used as addition protection as per section 7.

While the shaver socket is an isolating device, it does have a screw showing that is connected to the MET and was used to take a reading from. I was not implying that it would be the source of the shock risk.

All bathroom ccts. Should still be supplementary bonded together or changed to be RCD protected, I believe.

 

[tricky dick]

I just think that un-bonded copper pipe work presents an earth path which in a fault condition could easily be at a different potential to the faulty device earth that may be present in the same room eg a class 1 vacuum cleaner?
However, I totally agree that bonding is not without risks and can introduce dangers where non existed before. In an installation that is partly unknown it is better to be sure and bond anyway; IMHO. No rights and wrongs though, it is up to the sparks to justify his position.

 

[Cbigfoot]

I agree that now the requirement for the 17th is all circuits should be RCD, however this is a PIR and the PIR test is not the same as a new install. You are required to make comment on deviations from the current regulations, however the installation should be satisfactory if it is deemed safe for continued use.

However i also thought that the statement that you do not need to bond Poly services was bought in for the 17th edition.

Therefore the installation actually complies with neither set of regulations?

 

[somersetsparks]

I'm sure it was around in the 16th, Most new builds from the last 10 years have no water bonding, although I can't quote you any page numbers!

 

[Jimmy Boy]

I pose a question, we have banks of stainless steel kennels at work, they most definitely are not an ECP, however and here's the rub,they have banks of sockets fixed to wood on top of the kennel, and leads from these enter the kennels, this could 'Liven' up the kennels if a wire got damaged, now if these sockets were fixed directly to the kennels I guess you could argue they form part of the installation so become an Exposed conductive part..your thoughts ? So they shouldn't be bonded as they are not an ECP but bonding them would operate the breaker/RCD if they were..see my dilemma ?
ATB
J

 

[electric will]

Don't bond them and they come live if wiring shorts to them, bond them and they come live under fault conditions.
couldnt you make them Ecp and then bond them, as if they where structural steel?

 

[Jimmy Boy]

How can you 'make' something an ECP ? The whole point of bonding an ECP is to bring it to the same potential as your incoming Earth, if it's not 'Earthy' bonding it to MET will not make it an ECP..but as always I await those better endowed in this area than me to contribute !
J

 

[electric will]

I mean make them earthy, like structural steel, the bond them

 

[Jimmy Boy]

Will me bad..ECP I meant an Extraneous part not an Exposed. I don't see how you can 'make' something 'Earthy' it either has a different potential to your MET or it doesn't .
Have a butchers at this..
http://www.cila.co.uk/files/ECA Material/17_edition_factsheet_05.pdf

 

[electric will]

I may be way off here but bear with me, if you rodded the steel of the kennels to the ground and then bonded back to the met with 10mm, wouldn't this be the same as a incoming water/gas pipe or steel work?

 

[Jimmy Boy]

I may be way off here but bear with me, if you rodded the steel of the kennels to the ground and then bonded back to the met with 10mm, wouldn't this be the same as a incoming water/gas pipe or steel work?

I can not see a reason to do that,unless you want to do all the steel in the premises including all the knives forks and spoons, and of course the can opener
J