Fixed Appliances--Again-No doubt

[cbw]

That old chestnut!!!!!

I once made myself very popular on a Paramedic training course by reminding the pompous assesor that you needed a degree to teach 5 year olds and what qualifications did he have??????

Didnt go down too well!!!!!

 

[cbw]

I actually remember all those years ago, he said "And thats why you will never be better than average"

My relpy was "At least I am not a below average burned out instructor"

Cant believe I passed!!!!!!

 

[UNG]

With instructors I often wonder who trained them and who trained the instructors instructor

I made myself popular with the instructor on a rope access course who said he was sitting on a standards committee and that they where looking at banning the use of tied knots in ropes in favour of preformed stitched eyes in the ropes having pointed out to him that this would preclude the use of rope diversions and they wanted the rules changing as they could not teach people to tie knots proficiently and they would make more money on the sale of rope as any damage near the end of the rope would render it scrap as the cost to get a new eye formed in the rope would be expensive, I concluded by suggesting that he and his other committee members were just looking for methods to make more money and make life easy for them

 

[Silly Sausage]

With instructors I often wonder who trained them and who trained the instructors instructor

I made myself popular with the instructor on a rope access course who said he was sitting on a standards committee and that they where looking at banning the use of tied knots in ropes in favour of preformed stitched eyes in the ropes having pointed out to him that this would preclude the use of rope diversions and they wanted the rules changing as they could not teach people to tie knots proficiently and they would make more money on the sale of rope as any damage near the end of the rope would render it scrap as the cost to get a new eye formed in the rope would be expensive, I concluded by suggesting that he and his other committee members were just looking for methods to make more money and make life easy for them

Good on you UNG!

As a climber, knot tying is an essential basic skill, you never know when or where you might have to tie off.

For roped access, to even think of banning the use of knots, or training of, is utterly mental!
It's a pitiful world we live in (sometimes)

 

[Adam W]

Presumably at some point it would be beneficial for one of the instructors to have actually gone out in the real world and practiced first hand what they are teaching; even better if all of them have.

Do you now need a degree and a PGCE to show an apprentice the ropes?

 

[UNG]

To get back on topic

May be the problem lies with City & Guilds or the course originator, the 2377 deals with PAT testing and totally misses the fact that all appliances portable and fixed need to be inspected and tested as with all these things it will take a few deaths before any one will take any notice

May be the 2377 needs to be revamped to remove the ambiguity it has created with regard to appliance testing and the clients obligations under the electricity at work act

 

[oldtimer]

To get back on topic

May be the problem lies with City & Guilds or the course originator, the 2377 deals with PAT testing and totally misses the fact that all appliances portable and fixed need to be inspected and tested as with all these things it will take a few deaths before any one will take any notice

May be the 2377 needs to be revamped to remove the ambiguity it has created with regard to appliance testing and the clients obligations under the electricity at work act

Yep I agree as I think that will be the case as it is now an embaressment because they sold it on the idea that a semi skilled guy could PAT test the only problem was that someone said one day ok that the fixed wiring and the portable appliances sorted and then somebody else pipped up and said what about the fixed appliances because they can be just as dangerous hence why we are haveing this debate and NIC are not interested (well actually they are but they choose to ignore this because they dont have the answer to the problem)

 

[72-van]

Yep I agree as I think that will be the case as it is now an embaressment because they sold it on the idea that a semi skilled guy could PAT test the only problem was that someone said one day ok that the fixed wiring and the portable appliances sorted and then somebody else pipped up and said what about the fixed appliances because they can be just as dangerous hence why we are haveing this debate and NIC are not interested (well actually they are but they choose to ignore this because they dont have the answer to the problem)

Is the answer to the problem the same answer that some members on the forum have given before a electricians licence from the "" government "" .No licence no messy about .

perhaps a defined scope 'pat' licence for those who can prove complete competence by doing a pat trade test .with recertification at each edition of the cop . bit like bs7671 16 th to 17th edition ?

in my humble opinion the next pat cop should make it crystal clear in its definition of competence and if cg 2377 is to be the one accepted part od this definition then the practical part of this course should be ammended to include those skills required for safe isolation .



bear in mind that i am not a spark (although i do a bit of pat) but can see the merits in sorting the current mess out perhaps it will remove some ticket slappers from the biz and get the prices to a level they should be at to make the job worthwhile . #

72-van
fife

 

[Adam W]

I envisage a 'PAT licence' being counter-productive - it will probably just be a box ticking exercise which you have to pay for every year or so, like the ECS health and safety test. For experienced electricians trying to do PAT properly but who don't do it all the time it will be even less worthwhile so the work will go to 'specialist' PAT companies who pay minimum wage to compete on price, ie the sticker slappers.

 

[72-van]

[QUOTEI envisage a 'PAT licence' being counter-productive - it will probably just be a box ticking exercise which you have to pay for every year or so, like the ECS health and safety test. For experienced electricians trying to do PAT properly but who don't do it all the time it will be even less worthwhile so the work will go to 'specialist' PAT companies who pay minimum wage to compete on price, ie the sticker slappers. ][/QUOTE]

I hear what your saying but my thoughts were along the line off a pat trade test similar to the one a spark takes at the end of his time.coupled with a update each time the cop edition changes .
i would at no time want to deny those sparks who are interested in this line of work from easily continuing to do so my objective would be to address the happy wi that ticket slappy operatives.

i am sure its only a matter of time before i hear of someone seriously hurt 5mins after a specialists slappy ticket day .

72-van

 

[Adam W]

But again, if the code of practice changes every few years or so that's about £200 - £300 every so often which if you don't do a lot of PAT might equate to £50 per job just to keep 'up to date', which isn't competitive if you're up against someone who only does PAT.

 

[72-van]

I take your point Adam but if the ticket slappers went i am sure there would be a little more profit in the work .making it easier to pay out the fees for re-accreditation .

Its one of the reasons that at the moment even though i quite enjoy doing the work i am reluctant to take on new clients as they expect this work to be done for next to nothing then complain when i take several times longer to complete the site than the happy slappy brigades.
"what do you mean its failed its been okay for years works just fine .."

72-van

 

[SirKit Breaker]

But again, if the code of practice changes every few years or so that's about £200 - £300 every so often which if you don't do a lot of PAT might equate to £50 per job just to keep 'up to date', which isn't competitive if you're up against someone who only does PAT.

The current version of the COP has been in force since about 2006, and it still has 16th edition terminology in it. However, the current version of the Electricity at Work regulations have been in force since 1989, and the Health and safety at work act since 1974.

There is a load of other legislation, which is also listed in the COP, and it all falls under the remit of EAWR and HASAWA, all three clearly state what needs inspecting and testing, and why.

In a nutshell, ALL electrical equipment requires some sort of maintenance etc, i wont quote rules and regs, but the first few pages of the COP explain it all very clearly, even down to who has responsibility etc etc.

The COP costs about £35 not £200.

Cheers..........Howard

 

[Adam W]

I don't see how taking a test, filling in a form and writing out a cheque will stop sticker slappers. Whenever the old '5 week wonder vs time served JIB spark' issue comes up someone always points out that they know a time served JIB spark whose work is dog rough so the training and experience route isn't watertight; this is PAT testing, not rocket science - you can blag your way through it after a couple of days tuition. Whether or not someone choses to put what they've learned into practice in the real world or increase the profit margins because they've got mouths to feed is another matter.

 

[Adam W]

The current version of the COP has been in force since about 2006, and it still has 16th edition terminology in it. However, the current version of the Electricity at Work regulations have been in force since 1989, and the Health and safety at work act since 1974.

There is a load of other legislation, which is also listed in the COP, and it all falls under the remit of EAWR and HASAWA, all three clearly state what needs inspecting and testing, and why.

In a nutshell, ALL electrical equipment requires some sort of maintenance etc, i wont quote rules and regs, but the first few pages of the COP explain it all very clearly, even down to who has responsibility etc etc.

The COP costs about £35 not £200.

Cheers..........Howard

2007, reprinted 2008.
The CoP costs about £35, but the course costs about £200 - £300. You don't get a certificate for buying a book.