Good news!

[D Skelton]

I've been invited by Mr Betts' office to attend Parliament on the 6th to sit on the panel at the next committee meeting enquiring into the effectiveness of self certification schemes!

I hope Parliamentary privileges extend to me, I am known for being rather outspoken!

 

[Engineer54]

I know this person very well and his background . I have seen the card in question . So it looks like and prooves the jib is also a money makin scam . Sorry if thats burst your bubble my friend . Anyway we digress and yes the main issue is being safe not intelligent enough to pass a few exams . Its about doing a good job , making sure the customers and their family are happy , so they will pass on ur good name to someone else . All it is at the end of the day , if your in business you need to make money . Whats the saying an honest days work for an honest days pay . Just like plumbers and gas fitters mmmmmmm

I haven't read the latest entry requirements or handbook, ...i do know that there was grandfather rights attached to many of the older sparks for entry purposes but they would not cover your mate, and those older guy's had all been apprenticed, just no AM2 or NVQ's etc. They also tend to want to see original certifications and not copies...

So if what you're saying now, is that electrical trainee's training will get you a JIB Gold Card on the strength of a bosses letter, you may as well kick the JIB into touch now too!! They were at the very least, the last bastion of accredited qualified Electricians and Technicians in the UK!!


To be honest i still don't believe it, we regularly get qualified electricians coming on here moaning like hell that the JIB have only issued them with trainee cards because they don't hold an AM2 certificate or something daft like that and with a company letter. So how a guy that only has his 17 th cert, and jack all else get's issued a Gold Card, just doesn't ring to me. Sure it's not a fake one, there were a spate of those things going round at one time??

 

[Engineer54]

Agree. Sheds aside, the likes of ourselves, Screwfix & TLC, have all high levels of online Sales. 'YESSS', Neweys, Denmans etc will almost certainly only increase their levels of internet sales in future - very difficult to monitor/restrict who buys from your website and what qualifications they have (if any).

Yep, that's another aspect when trying to restrict the sale of electrical materials!! lol!! Your never going to beat those Sheds and other big retailers they have far too much clout where it matters!!

When you start down the electrical police route, you're just asking for a can of worms to open up!! The fact is as i've pointed out many times, the general public owe domestic jobbing electricians nothing. We need to sort out our side electrical industry before having a pop at the DIYers, many of which have a better understanding of electrical installation work than the 5 week chancer's that are out there!!


The first and by far the most important step forward, is the formation of a government backed National Register of Qualified electricians, with the teeth to police the system. That will get rid of any excuse for scam providers to be required for domestic installations, and stop the training providers inappropriately flooding the industry with wannabe electricians under the cloak of this made up title of ''Domestic Installers''!! No other mainstream country in the world has such lowly trained people, in fact many of the European countries especially Germany and France, actively promote and finance in-depth training via apprentice styled systems...

 

[killy bing]

Not too sure if my view will be welcomed but us in the heating industry are calling for the same thing with oil as oftec is a joke.

we have different risks, ours is explosions and carbon monoxide generally.
with gas and lpg you cant smell when an appliance is burning incorrectly and producing co
however with oil the appliance stinks to high hell as a by product, because of that people realise something is wrong and less people die from oil appliances.
So any tool can go in a three day course and call themselves an oftec technician.

when it comes down to policing any industry, no one takes notice till people start dying.

as horrible as it is to say, best thing for your industry is to have a newly qualified fast tracker burn down a building with a young family with kids in it.
horrible but no one in power wants the extra effort of changing anything unless it makes them look like a hero....

 

[D Skelton]

You haven't answered my point Eng. It's not just the DIYer I'm having a pop at, it's the Electrical Trainee that will be able to continue working without upskilling.

 

[Engineer54]

You haven't answered my point Eng. It's not just the DIYer I'm having a pop at, it's the Electrical Trainee that will be able to continue working without upskilling.

Not legally!! That's the main point. Anyone stupid enough to blatantly continue working outside of the law is something that no-one but the legal authorities can do anything about.

Obviously, there will be a need to give all those under trained and under qualified/inexperienced people a period of time to gain the minimal acceptance criteria, but after that time has expired, they will be out of any official recognition and at the mercy of the legal system!! lol!!

 

[Jeffmo65]

Engineer 54 . Trust me when I say this guy attained a gold card from JIB . I would not even mention it if it wasn't fact . He is however a very competent electrician both practically and theoretically . Please , I do not wish to antagonise anybody on this forum as its a great site .However some things aren't always as black and white as we think . Obviously the JIB considered this particular individual to have enough experience and knowledge to warrant one of these useless cards

 

[Engineer54]

For my own piece of mind, i want to continue to believe that at least the JIB don't give gold cards to electrical trainee's with a few years experience under their belt and jack all else!!

From my admittedly limited understanding of how the JIB grading system works, things tend to be very black & white with the JIB, it's likened to robotic step by step actions that all need to be in place for anything to be issued. More often than not, far lower grades are given than those being applied for, sometimes on the most trivial of basises... I wouldn't call them particularly useless cards either, without one you don't get to work (electrician) on any of the bigger construction projects in the UK, or a good number of smaller projects.

So let's agree to disagree on this one, at least it'll still give me some semblance of hope for the UK's
electrical industry!! lol!!

 

[Jeffmo65]

For my own piece of mind, i want to continue to believe that at least the JIB don't give gold cards to electrical trainee's with a few years experience under their belt and jack all else!!

From my admittedly limited understanding of how the JIB grading system works, things tend to be very black & white with the JIB, it's likened to robotic step by step actions that all need to be in place for anything to be issued. More often than not, far lower grades are given than those being applied for, sometimes on the most trivial of basises... I wouldn't call them particularly useless cards either, without one you don't get to work (electrician) on any of the bigger construction projects in the UK, or a good number of smaller projects.

So let's agree to disagree on this one, at least it'll still give me some semblance of hope for the UK's
electrical industry!! lol!!

Ok buddy . Good conversation though . Maybe useless was a bit harsh but I have worked on some quite large sites and never being asked for the holy grail , but I admit its good to have just in case

 

[Mark P]

You can find it on the DCLG website, follow the links for investigation into Building Regs and Part P. You can watch the whole session of NIC, ECA, Napit and Certsure being grilled if you're so inclined. MARVEL at how they sound like advertisers from the 1980s; WATCH in awe as they evade questions; TREMBLE at the prospect of them running anything let alone a single scheme; BE HORRIFIED that these people are "leading" speakers in the industry.

As a fellow invitee, Mr Skelton, I look forward to seeing you there and we will undress their emperor's clothing and show them for what they are!

 

[Badged01]

I look forward to seeing you there and we will undress their emperor's clothing and show them for what they are!

Good luck! But be careful, these "schemes" etc .... didnt get to where they are today without being very cunning, crafty and able to manipulate things to what they want!

 

[Geordie Spark]

Good luck! But be careful, these "schemes" etc .... didnt get to where they are today without being very cunning, crafty and able to manipulate things to what they want!

Sounds like you've just written the design brief for politicians.

 

[Knobhead]

I didn’t get where I am today by …… CJ in the Rise and Fall of Reginald Perrin.

 

[D Skelton]

Not legally!! That's the main point. Anyone stupid enough to blatantly continue working outside of the law is something that no-one but the legal authorities can do anything about.

And how do you propose the authorities deal with these 'criminals'? lol. Lock em up? C'mon, get real. Why be reactive when you can be proactive!

 

[Knobhead]

And how do you propose the authorities deal with these 'criminals'? lol. Lock em up? C'mon, get real. Why be reactive when you can be proactive!

A hefty fine is all we can hope for. But as to stopping them, Canute stood more chance.

If things do change the press needs to be on side. Reporting in local papers the cowboys caught. The first few in court will drive a lot of the cowboys out.

But and this is a big but. If the registered electricians start driving the prices up too quickly, the press will turn against you. It’s going to take years to sort out the current mess so it has to be taken gently.

The bit that’s getting me annoyed is the IET trumpeting they uphold the regulations while at the same time redefining competent to taught in amendment 3. Look up the definitions in the OED.
My subscription to the IET is due, I’m thinking of telling them to shove it.

 

[ipf]

A hefty fine is all we can hope for. But as to stopping them, Canute stood more chance.

If things do change the press needs to be on side. Reporting in local papers the cowboys caught. The first few in court will drive a lot of the cowboys out.

But and this is a big but. If the registered electricians start driving the prices up too quickly, the press will turn against you. It’s going to take years to sort out the current mess so it has to be taken gently.

The bit that’s getting me annoyed is the IET trumpeting they uphold the regulations while at the same time redefining competent to taught in amendment 3. Look up the definitions in the OED.
My subscription to the IET is due, I’m thinking of telling them to shove it.

When ''electricians'' are being employed for under £10 an hour, as is obviously the case in some situations, bo££ox to the press. Many of these are nothing more than labourers, being paid as such, underpricing and undermining the trade with sinking standards