Heating Engineer set me a challenge

[specs]

Good morning Chris, I am entirely in agreement with your comments regarding 'balancing the system' . Over the years the company I work for has employed many so called 'Heating Engineers' .The pic shows an install that could have been done by one of these 'tradesmen'. I have been on many a callout where a tenant has complained that certain rads don't get warm where as others are roasting hot, when I have checked the valves they are all on full (both sides of the rad ) and as a quick fix I have turned down the valves on the 'hot' rads . This does the trick in most cases, I am not saying I have sorted out the problem completely as clearly the system requires balancing and checking for air locks maybe even a central heating pump or whatever. My next job is to arrange for the 'Heating Engineer ' to attend and sort out the problem properly. My experience of some of these characters is not good. As a company we employ these people on a yearly contract to service the systems and do the annual check and issue certs as appropriate, and on occasion to install new boilers. If the system needed to be drained for a leaking joint say somewhere near the boiler I would expect the engineer (not me) to deal with it as they saw fit and if they decided to lock down the rad valves then I would not argue as I would take it as' given' that they would know what to do , ie check amount of turns on valve. As far as taking out the plug tops on the op's pic I think your idea would have been workable if there was more space, a tad to fiddly for my liking but probably possible.

 

[specs]

Hi Chris

Until I saw this: 1. Unless the Lockshield Valves are checked for exactly the amount that they are Open - which is NOT just guessing `2 Turns open` for example - when they are reopened to something which is NOT exactly how they were this WILL throw out the Balancing of the entire Heating System !

I was thinking it was only me who bothered to balance the system !!!

I think you and I must be in the minority !

From my experience you probably are

 

[Guitarist]

Hello Chris,

I don't think anyone can doubt your professionalism, and please don't take anything anybody said too seriously. The comments about how to "disconnect" the pipework by various members were meant to be tongue-in-cheek, I'm sure, and I'm also sure that you can understand that our standing jokes are born out of genuine frustration when we regularly come up against situations such as my picture shows.
I very much look forward to your opinion in future threads.

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris

Until I saw this: 1. Unless the Lockshield Valves are checked for exactly the amount that they are Open - which is NOT just guessing `2 Turns open` for example - when they are reopened to something which is NOT exactly how they were this WILL throw out the Balancing of the entire Heating System !

I was thinking it was only me who bothered to balance the system !!!

I think you and I must be in the minority !

"Hello Geordie Spark",


Thanks for your message.


Because most of my working life I have been Installing Heating Systems as part of a total Re-Plumb plus a Heating System in refurbishments of either Homes that had never had Central Heating - in a period from the early 1970`s to perhaps about 1990.

Or as complete strip outs of existing Heating Systems from the 1970`s / 1980`s usually because of both bad design and Corrosion of the Boiler Heat Exchanger - Radiators and Sludged up Pipework and then install my own design / calculated Heating Systems - it has always been VERY Important to Me to correctly Balance my Systems.

My Professionalism / Heating System Design / Calculations are reflected in how well the Heating System operates - it MUST be correctly Balanced - taking MANY Temperatures for each Radiator during a fairly long period.

I would usually carry this out in about a Day in a House - while I am insulating the Ground Floor / Underfloor Pipework and making good around sleeves / holes etc. - `Final Day` works.

A Flat is easier as You know because so many adjustments do not have to be made to Balance the Flow and Return to the Upper / Lower Floor Radiators.


I have never installed a System that I have not Balanced - As You know this usually takes at least a few Hours even with correctly sized and installed Pipework.

IF I was ever told that I could NOT have the Time / Money to Balance a Heating System that I was to install I would either absorb the Cost as I would usually be carrying out other works at the same time - Or NOT do the Job - I would NOT leave a Heating System with a `rough setting` of the Lockshield Valves guessing that it `would work O.K` !


When I read about `locking down the Rads` - this immediately prompted Me to write why that should NOT be done - unless precise notes of the position of the Lockshield Valves are taken.


Also as You know depending upon the type of System `locking down the Rads` is just looking for trouble with Air Locks.


I simply could not let those comments go unchallenged.


Regards,


Chris

 

[chris murphy]

Good morning Chris, I am entirely in agreement with your comments regarding 'balancing the system' . Over the years the company I work for has employed many so called 'Heating Engineers' .The pic shows an install that could have been done by one of these 'tradesmen'. I have been on many a callout where a tenant has complained that certain rads don't get warm where as others are roasting hot, when I have checked the valves they are all on full (both sides of the rad ) and as a quick fix I have turned down the valves on the 'hot' rads . This does the trick in most cases, I am not saying I have sorted out the problem completely as clearly the system requires balancing and checking for air locks maybe even a central heating pump or whatever. My next job is to arrange for the 'Heating Engineer ' to attend and sort out the problem properly. My experience of some of these characters is not good. As a company we employ these people on a yearly contract to service the systems and do the annual check and issue certs as appropriate, and on occasion to install new boilers. If the system needed to be drained for a leaking joint say somewhere near the boiler I would expect the engineer (not me) to deal with it as they saw fit and if they decided to lock down the rad valves then I would not argue as I would take it as' given' that they would know what to do , ie check amount of turns on valve. As far as taking out the plug tops on the op's pic I think your idea would have been workable if there was more space, a tad to fiddly for my liking but probably possible.

"Hello specs",


Thanks for your message.

I am a Professional Heating Engineer - unlike some so called `Heating Engineers` / `Plumbers` that Members on here seem to run into on a regular basis.

I can see how if You are used to seeing / hearing about `lock down the Radiators` from those `Heating Engineers`as part of the Draining down process You would take it as a legitimate process - BUT in the circumstances that I imagine these operatives are working in - i.e: `Get it done ASAP and on to the next Job` - they are doing that purely to save time - and if they do not get an Air Lock they will have saved some time.

But there will undoubtedly be pockets of Air moving around the System [which hopefully will go into Radiators] even after they have refilled the Boiler and Pipework and opened the Radiator valves to `Vent`.

The point is that IF the Heating System HAS been Balanced previously it is very unlikely to remain Balanced after this `lock down the Radiators` process during Draining down.

If this is noticed by the Tenants / Householder it would be reported as a completely different `Fault` to whatever had to be rectified previously - e.g: "some of my Radiators are not as Hot as they used to be" - so NO `Blame` is then attached to the `Engineer` who `locked down the Radiators` during Draining down the Heating System.

That is why I was so `vocal` in my criticism of what You suggested - and of course the possibility of Air Locks depending upon the System type and property type.


Regards,

Chris

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Hello Chris Murphy,

I enjoy reading your posts, clearly you are a man of standards. Please keep posting.

Nick.

 

[chris murphy]

Hello Chris Murphy,

I enjoy reading your posts, clearly you are a man of standards. Please keep posting.

Nick.

"Hello SPARTYKUS / Nick",


Thanks very much for the Compliment.


I have lived / worked to Very High Standards / Quality of Workmanship all of my working life - as I have been Self Employed for most of the last 30 Years I have been the one who designs and Installs Systems and decides everything that I do.

My `Working life` is almost at an end now in terms of my Age and the fact that I have severe Injury problems to my Back and both knees - after over 45 Years of carrying out my work to these High Standards I would never change now in practice or opinion.


Regards,


Chris

 

[D Skelton]

I've had it up to the neck with this post and these ameteur replies, you call yourselves sparks?! You're all a bunch of charlatans!

I had an almost identical situation the other day, out came the Silver Pidgeon. Two blasts and 60g of lead shot did a lovely job of removing both the socket and the boiler/pipework in ONE go! All this talk of wiggling, unscrewing and draining down is just making me sick!

This used to be an electricians forum, all it is now is a meeting place for 'ave a go heros!

Pah!

 

[Knobhead]

A bit drastic, but I like your thinking.

Shame my thermic ticket has expired.

 

[Guitarist]

I've had it up to the neck with this post and these ameteur replies, you call yourselves sparks?! You're all a bunch of charlatans!

I had an almost identical situation the other day, out came the Silver Pidgeon. Two blasts and 60g of lead shot did a lovely job of removing both the socket and the boiler/pipework in ONE go! All this talk of wiggling, unscrewing and draining down is just making me sick!

This used to be an electricians forum, all it is now is a meeting place for 'ave a go heros!

Pah!

I'm really sorry for doing it the civilised way, but the old lady got quite upset for some reason when I fired up the chainsaw....

 

[SPARTYKUS]

Now that would take a VERY steady hand....

 

[Guitarist]

Now that would take a VERY steady hand....

I owned an acre of woodland a few years back and got very skilled with a chainsaw, even carving a few sculptures with one. For some reason, people get very nervous around them tho...

 

[shagbite]

I've had it up to the neck with this post and these ameteur replies, you call yourselves sparks?! You're all a bunch of charlatans!

I had an almost identical situation the other day, out came the Silver Pidgeon. Two blasts and 60g of lead shot did a lovely job of removing both the socket and the boiler/pipework in ONE go! All this talk of wiggling, unscrewing and draining down is just making me sick!

This used to be an electricians forum, all it is now is a meeting place for 'ave a go heros!

Pah!

blimey erwin........


was it this incident that earned you the knight's cross of the iron cross with oak leaves, swords and diamonds?

 

[Knobhead]

Move aside, I'll sort this out

 

[gazj82]

You ever had a plumber put an immersion heater tank up so high that you can't get the element out. Then you have to cut a hole in the airing cupoard ceiling just to get it out! That's if it's not right under a joist. Has this a few times over the years