immersion heater and a shower pump

[sclarkin]

Hi just joined and was reading thread, i was told once that immersion should'nt be on plug top as our 13amp plugs are not actually rated at 13amps only rated at 9 amps for periods of long use.

 

[IQ Electrical]

Hi just joined and was reading thread, i was told once that immersion should'nt be on plug top as our 13amp plugs are not actually rated at 13amps only rated at 9 amps for periods of long use.

I'd agree but in a domestic situation with a thermostatically controlled immersion heater, would that constitute "periods of long use" ?

 

[tonys]

After two attempts to get the NICEIC Technical to answer my questions in written e-mail format I received two answers many days after, the first answer was not a direct answer to my question, but the second answer was.

Answer one - In answer to your question regulation 554.3.3 does clearly state connection by double pole linked switch without use of plug and socket, also appendix 15 does state loads over 2KW should be on their own dedicated circuit.

Answer two - I do not believe that this section refers to standard domestic immersion heater elements that are considered to have insulated elements.

GN 1 does confuse matters somewhat in determining that immersion heaters (in general) should be on their own circuit and then refer to section 554.3


In future I will be better off asking people like IQ & Wirepuller any Technical Questions, because the NICEIC inbox was not very full shall I say when I asked the questions in the first instance.

So what really ----es me off is, they send out one of their inspectors every year to assess me and the company I work for and really try and be clever with their attitude, and say your wrong on this and that, then their Technical back up don't really like to back up their inspectors.

Told my mate to leave them and join another scheme, but he won't lol

 

[IQ Electrical]

After two attempts to get the NICEIC Technical to answer my questions in written e-mail format I received two answers many days after, the first answer was not a direct answer to my question, but the second answer was.

Answer one - In answer to your question regulation 554.3.3 does clearly state connection by double pole linked switch without use of plug and socket, also appendix 15 does state loads over 2KW should be on their own dedicated circuit.

Answer two - I do not believe that this section refers to standard domestic immersion heater elements that are considered to have insulated elements.

GN 1 does confuse matters somewhat in determining that immersion heaters (in general) should be on their own circuit and then refer to section 554.3


In future I will be better off asking people like IQ & Wirepuller any Technical Questions, because the NICEIC inbox was not very full shall I say when I asked the questions in the first instance.

So what really ----es me off is, they send out one of their inspectors every year to assess me and the company I work for and really try and be clever with their attitude, and say your wrong on this and that, then their Technical back up don't really like to back up their inspectors.

Told my mate to leave them and join another scheme, but he won't lol

Oh yes, we can make it up far faster than NICEIC!

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Well at least the NICEIC have been able to clear that up.
What was the question again?

 

[tonys]

Well at least the NICEIC have been able to clear that up.
What was the question again?

LOL

Regulation 554.3 does not apply to domestic immersion heaters ha ha

 

[nickblake]

What comes first the chicken or the egg............................................. hehe

 

[pushrod]

What comes first the chicken or the egg............................................. hehe

well for me sometimes its the fox! the other morning the clever B***** panicked one of my hens so much it flew over my electric fence straight into his mouth. By the time i got there all there was left was a few feathers and some rather miffed looking chickens on the safe side lol

 

[malcolmsanford]

After two attempts to get the NICEIC Technical to answer my questions in written e-mail format I received two answers many days after, the first answer was not a direct answer to my question, but the second answer was.

Answer one - In answer to your question regulation 554.3.3 does clearly state connection by double pole linked switch without use of plug and socket, also appendix 15 does state loads over 2KW should be on their own dedicated circuit.

Answer two - I do not believe that this section refers to standard domestic immersion heater elements that are considered to have insulated elements.

GN 1 does confuse matters somewhat in determining that immersion heaters (in general) should be on their own circuit and then refer to section 554.3


In future I will be better off asking people like IQ & Wirepuller any Technical Questions, because the NICEIC inbox was not very full shall I say when I asked the questions in the first instance.

So what really ----es me off is, they send out one of their inspectors every year to assess me and the company I work for and really try and be clever with their attitude, and say your wrong on this and that, then their Technical back up don't really like to back up their inspectors.

Told my mate to leave them and join another scheme, but he won't lol

Thanks Tony. I have to admit I was at cross swords with Tony on this and thought that a domestic immersion was indeed under regulations 544.3.3, but it would appear not. So thank you for seeing this through.

Though there would not be a contravention of the Regs by fitting this to a BS 1363 socket and plug, how many of us would actually do the installation this way, I don't think I would be one to use this method as my first choice.

We now have through this thread comments that by fitting it on a 13amp FCU should be discouraged because a 3KW appliance at 230 volt takes over 13amps and at certain temperature ranges this could affect the integrity of that FCU, then surely this would be the same for a 13amp plug top and socket.

It seems the only fool safe method is a 16amp Radial circuit supplying a 20amp double pole switch. Though this method would entail a certain amount of difficulty terminating the flexible cable from the heater into the switch, as unlike a FCU that as the flex outlet capacity I can't think of a switch that as this capability.

Once again as I was always told get 10 sparks in a room and you'll get 10 different methods to do something, which makes our industry if not controversial, it does make it interesting.

 

[tonys]

Malc

Carrying out a PIR, people need to know BS7671 thorough imo and I made a code on a plug top immersion and got punished because there as never been a regulation was is directed at the insulated domestic type one, if you get my drift.

When I first phoned the NICEIC Technical, the guy said straight away what the majority on here said, so I told him to think about and ask someone else in his department and he came back and said I was correct.

So whats the point in having a Technical helpline if they get it wrong ? I don't think they really like to commit in writing and prefer handing out verbal advice, because its gone within seconds.

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Thanks Tony. I have to admit I was at cross swords with Tony on this and thought that a domestic immersion was indeed under regulations 544.3.3, but it would appear not. So thank you for seeing this through.

Though there would not be a contravention of the Regs by fitting this to a BS 1363 socket and plug, how many of us would actually do the installation this way, I don't think I would be one to use this method as my first choice.

We now have through this thread comments that by fitting it on a 13amp FCU should be discouraged because a 3KW appliance at 230 volt takes over 13amps and at certain temperature ranges this could affect the integrity of that FCU, then surely this would be the same for a 13amp plug top and socket.

It seems the only fool safe method is a 16amp Radial circuit supplying a 20amp double pole switch. Though this method would entail a certain amount of difficulty terminating the flexible cable from the heater into the switch, as unlike a FCU that as the flex outlet capacity I can't think of a switch that as this capability.

MK Control Switch 20A DP 1 Gang + Neon + Base by MK

 

[MarkieSparkie]

Malcolm, Crabtree also have BS EN 60669-1 double pole 20A control switches which each have a knock-out and grip for flexible cord outlet, in their standard “Capital” range.

1. Crabtree Part No. 4015/3 20A DP Control Switch.
2. Crabtree Part No. 4015 20A DP Control Switch, with neon indicator.
3. Crabtree Part No. 4015/31 20A DP Control Switch, with neon indicator and marked “Water Heater”.

 

[pushrod]

Successfully drained tank & removed old immersion - cleaned threads on tank - good as new.

glad to hear it

 

[dannyv]

what code would you give for immersion with shower pump on same circuit?

 

[pushrod]

what code would you give for immersion with shower pump on same circuit?

If that is the only concern i don't think i would code it at all, AFAIK it is just a recommendation/good practice(appendix 15 informative of BS7671) that water heaters should be on there own dedicated circuit. To give it a code 4 it would have to breaking a specific current regulation. The OSG and other guides say "should" rather than "must" and do not quote reg numbers.