Installing ceiling lights but there is no earth

[sam4466]

I’m trying to fit a new ceiling light pendant.
the pendant has a small connector with blue,brown and green/yellow wires.

however on the ceiling , there is just one basic pendant with 2 cords attached (blue and brown) so there’s no earth.

There is no ceiling rose l,think when they installed sound proofing,the ceiling rose was covered under the sound proofing,and now there is only one pendant wire hanging out or ceiling which has blue and brown cord.

How do I proceed? can I just connect blue and brown to the new pendant with no earth?

photos attached.

 

[Phil L]

That new fitting will require an earth

 

[sam4466]

What happens if I just connect the live/neutral cords to the new connector and skip the earth as there is no earth available.

(there is possibly earth connected to the original ceiling rose which is now buried under the ceiling sound proofing with no access)

 

[telectrix]

it will work but it's potentially dangerous. if a fault developes in the fitting, the metal casing will become live, without earth connected, the breaker will not trip and you could end up brown bread.

 

[sam4466]

There is no ceiling rose.
I’ve attarched some pictures to my first post.
The ceiling rose was covered when they fitted sound proofing and plastered the ceiling.
Now there is just one cord hanging out of ceiling (which has live and neutral).

 

[sam4466]

it will work but it's potentially dangerous. if a fault developes in the fitting, the metal casing will become live, without earth connected, the breaker will not trip and you could end up brown bread.

Is there anything I can do to reduce such risk,for example cover the metal interior of this pendant with plastic tape etc? also is it still dangerous even if original fittings in the ceiling has earth already?
sorry if all this sounds silly!
can’t believe I am limited to just one basic light bulb hanging from the ceiling.

 

[telectrix]

you either find and connect the earth or fit an insulated class II (plastic) fitting. no compromises where safety is concerned.

 

[James]

Whoever fitted the soundproofing has contravened the electrical regs by burying the rose .
Your complaint should be aimed at them.

P.s. you don’t have to be an electrician or touch any wires to make something that was compliant, non compliant.

 

[sam4466]

Whoever fitted the soundproofing has contravened the electrical regs by burying the rose .
Your complaint should be aimed at them.

P.s. you don’t have to be an electrician or touch any wires to make something that was compliant, non compliant.

it's a rented property and soundproofing was fitted by landlord.
I think I'll start looking for these double insulated lights that don't need earth it's a shame because I already bought these spotlight pendant.

 

[DPG]

Has the landlord agreed to you changing the light fitting?

 

[sam4466]

Has the landlord agreed to you changing the light fitting?

they are not bothered about these small changes.

 

[DPG]

they are not bothered about these small changes.

I'm surprised at that. As a landlord myself I would not want a tenant changing light fittings. You never, someone may just change one for a class I fitting and leave it unearthed!

 

[sam4466]

I'm surprised at that. As a landlord myself I would not want a tenant changing light fittings. You never, someone may just change one for a class I fitting and leave it unearthed!

Well I'm responsible hence why asking to do it properly and safely..also these can be reversed back to original or if left modified,it's at my own expense and something added to the value of their property.
I mean a free modern spotlight bought by me vs their cheap boring single bulb hanging from ceiling.

 

[DPG]

Well I'm responsible hence why asking to do it properly and safely..also these can be reversed back to original or if left modified,it's at my own expense and something added to the value of their property.
I mean a free modern spotlight bought by me vs their cheap boring single bulb hanging from ceiling.

Well as long as you've cleared it with your landlord. But to my mind, the fact that you are asking if you can just leave the earth disconnected is quite worrying. I accept that you have asked on here for advice though, which is good.

 

[sam4466]

Well as long as you've cleared it with your landlord. But to my mind, the fact that you are asking if you can just leave the earth disconnected is quite worrying. I accept that you have asked on here for advice though, which is good.

I know there are people who don't even care about earth, the landord themselves were negligent covering the ceiling rose and earth under sound proofing, but yeah I just asked, and won't do it if it's unsafe.

 

[James]

Just out of interest, is there an EICR (electrical report) for the property?
it is required by law for all rented property's , just like the gas safety check.

If so, i am surprised that it has not come up on the report.

 

[sam4466]

Just out of interest, is there an EICR (electrical report) for the property?
it is required by law for all rented property's , just like the gas safety check.

If so, i am surprised that it has not come up on the report.

I don't know.the sound proofing was fitted around 6-7 months ago upon my request,prior to that there was a standard ceiling rose with earth connection.
they probably assumed that a normal shade will be attached and not a whole new lightning system (spotlights) that requires wiring and earth.
I don't think it's such a safety breach unless a lightning that requires earth is fitted.

been looking for double insulated ceiling spotlights and so for no luck, not on amazon,not on argos,etc the majority of these spotlights are made in China and it seems there is no such thing as double-insulating / class 2 standard.they probably just use some extra insulating tape and call it a day in most other countries?

 

[James]

All screw type connections must be accessible for service, repair and testing.
it is clear to me that by covering up the only access to them, they have reduced the safety of the installation.

it is likely that an electrical inspection will pick up on this issue and consider it to be a dangerous fault and this then will have to be repaired or investigated within 30 days.

a possible solution is to fit a notice to the consumer unit that states that there is no earth to the lighting circuits and class 1 fittings may NOT be fitted.

I think you could do with a professional electrician doing a site visit and preferably an EICR report.

 

[sam4466]

All screw type connections must be accessible for service, repair and testing.
it is clear to me that by covering up the only access to them, they have reduced the safety of the installation.

it is likely that an electrical inspection will pick up on this issue and consider it to be a dangerous fault and this then will have to be repaired or investigated within 30 days.

a possible solution is to fit a notice to the consumer unit that states that there is no earth to the lighting circuits and class 1 fittings may NOT be fitted.

I think you could do with a professional electrician doing a site visit and preferably an EICR report.

well that's not going to help with my problem is it? a notice that class 1 fitting could not be fitted! something that I already know. also as a tenant,all these repairs and inspections etc are on landlord.

 

[DPG]

well that's not going to help with my problem is it? a notice that class 1 fitting could not be fitted! something that I already know. also as a tenant,all these repairs and inspections etc are on landlord.

But you didn't know that until you were told by people on here.

You have had some good advice - it's up to you whether to heed it or not.

 

[Zerax]

Without investigating it myself... from what you have said... it sounds like if someone carefully dug out the plaster... they might find the original ceiling rose... then that person might be able to refit it correctly onto the surface of the ceiling, making good and re-painting.

 

[sam4466]

But you didn't know that until you were told by people on here.

You have had some good advice - it's up to you whether to heed it or not.

what do you mean?
I'm saying at this point,there is no point in bringing an electrician to provide me a note that certain type of fitting shouldn't be installed.

 

[telectrix]

no but a good electrician w

what do you mean?
I'm saying at this point,there is no point in bringing an electrician to provide me a note that certain type of fitting shouldn't be installed.

ould fing that rose in 5 minutes with a trusty hammer.

 

[sam4466]

Without investigating it myself... from what you have said... it sounds like if someone carefully dug out the plaster... they might find the original ceiling rose... then that person might be able to refit it correctly onto the surface of the ceiling, making good and re-painting.

it's not just plaster unfortunately,there one layer of plaster,then sound proofing board,then sound proofing foam,and then the original ceiling where the ceiling rose is fitted.it's simply not worth it/maybe not even possible.
the best choice will be either not installing a new lightning,or find one tjhat doesn't need earth (double insulated class 2) which are apparently not common and hard to find.

 

[telectrix]

no but a good electrician w

what do you mean?
I'm saying at this point,there is no point in bringing an electrician to provide me a note that certain type of fitting shouldn't be installed.

ould fing that rose in 5 minutes with a trusty hammer.

 

[Zerax]

it's not just plaster unfortunately,there one layer of plaster,then sound proofing board,then sound proofing foam,and then the original ceiling where the ceiling rose is fitted.it's simply not worth it/maybe not even possible.
the best choice will be either not installing a new lightning,or find one tjhat doesn't need earth (double insulated class 2) which are apparently not common and hard to find.

You still have the issue that there are screw-down connections within the ceiling that are not accessible. If an electrician needs to find a fault at some future time... he'll find it a bit tricky.. won't he ??

If it was me living there... I'd have that ceiling rose exposed...

I understand what sound proofing board is... my suggestion was that it may be possible that if you locate the ceiling rose, there may be enough slack on the cables for it to move downwards so that it's a the same level as the new ceiling... then back fill the hole behind it.

In the time I've spent writing this reply... I could probably have found it ! If it was a head-to-head with Tel I think he would have beaten me of course...

 

[sam4466]

Without investigating it myself... from what you have said... it sounds like if someone carefully dug out the plaster... they might find the original ceiling rose... then that person might be able to refit it correctly onto the surface of the ceiling, making good and re-painting.

no but a good electrician w

ould fing that rose in 5 minutes with a trusty hammer.

I found some photoes from the ceiling rose from the day sound proofing were being installed.
so it's now burried under layers of foam,boards and plaster.

 

[DPG]

Well, you know what needs to be done now anyway. Up to you now.

 

[sam4466]

In the time I've spent writing this reply... I could probably have found it ! If it was a head-to-head with Tel I think he would have beaten me of course...

check my posted pictures.I think it's impossible to reach without significant damage.

 

[Zerax]

Oh !!! It's behind a false ceiling... it's becoming clearer. In that case... you need to create an access panel around that light... big enough to work in... the plasterboard needs carefully cutting out with a plasterboard saw. Then fish out the ceiling rose... refit the access panel and re-mount the ceiling rose.... 30 min job for a sparky !

 

[DPG]

check my posted pictures.I think it's impossible to reach without significant damage.

Unfortunate indeed. The people doing the soundproofing work should have known not to hide electrical connections. I'd advise your landlord to get them back and put things right.

 

[sam4466]

Your points are all valid,however dealing with this is something landlord should worry about.and it's written in my lease.my concern is simply replacing that basic pendant with some spotlight bars. and finding a double insulated one that can be fitted with just 2 wires with no need for an earth connection.

 

[DPG]

Your points are all valid,however dealing with this is something landlord should worry about.and it's written in my lease.my concern is simply replacing that basic pendant with some spotlight bars. and finding a double insulated one that can be fitted with just 2 wires with no need for an earth connection.

The landlord needs to resolve this before any light fittings are changed.

 

[sam4466]

The landlord needs to resolve this before any light fittings are changed.

then it's simply not worth the hassle, in the middle of a pandemic.
maybe I should just look for a nice shade to hang around the same pendant and forget about spotlights!

 

[DPG]

then it's simply not worth the hassle, in the middle of a pandemic.
maybe I should just look for a nice shade to hang around the same pendant and forget about spotlights!

I'd tend to agree I think.

 

[telectrix]

what do you mean?
I'm saying at this point,there is no point in bringing an electrician to provide me a note that certain type of fitting shouldn't be installed.

no but a good electrician would find that rose in 5 minutes with a trusty hammer.

 

[telectrix]

is there access from above, by lifting floorboards? could be an alternative to the hammer.

 

[sam4466]

no but a good electrician would find that rose in 5 minutes with a trusty hammer.

no.also needs more than a hammer like others said above i,f you see those photos!

 

[telectrix]

obviously whoever fitted the soundproofing was too tight-arsed to pay a sparks to alter the electrics.