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electromonkey

Just after some advice/opinions really gents,

I completed a rewire last week of a small bungalow. When I went to quote for the job, the customer said that the kitchen had been re wired when a new kitchen had been installed and that it was on its own circuit so I didn't need to include it on the quote.

On starting the job, I found that all was not well and informed the customer. On my last day of the job, the electrician who wired the kitchen turned up with his invoice and cert for the work he his firm had carried out. A heated debate then started over the following points....

1 No earth bonding to the gas or water supplies and the mains earth was also insufficient.

2 The kitchen had been wired as a radial circuit.

3 The origin of the new radial circuit cam via a 30a JB that was already connected to the original ring, with a spur already running from it.

4 There were sockets installed in cupboards below the work tops with no isolator switches.

5 The work was carried out on a MWC

When the customer asked me to take the electrician from the other firm through the list, he believed he had done nothing wrong as he had told the customer that the bonding was required as he was working on the job but they didn't want to pay for the work and that the work he carried out only required a MWC. He also claimed that the radial circuit (which has an oven, washing machine, microwave, kettle, toaster and deep fat fryer plus others) was acceptable and ok run via a spur hence his MWC!

My interpretation of it is that points 2 and 3 are definite no nos.

With point one, I don't know if this is because of years of standard working practice for me but I was under the impression that when you carry out any work that requires any certification, all earthing to the gas, water and mains must be brought to standard. If when you quote for a job and the customer asks for the bonding not to be done then you don't carry out any work, if you forget to quote for this when pricing a job then tell the customer, if the customer refuses to pay, you still have to carry out the work and take the hit. Am I correct with this or not?

Finally, with point 4, I see this quite regularly and the argument always seems to come down to interpretation over what is and isn't accessible. For me personally, If I install any socket or outlet in to a kitchen cupboard, I always install an isolator switch for it.

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. At present, my customer is refusing to pay for the work carried out in their kitchen based on what I have told them. Obviously if I'm wrong on any of these points, I need to let my customer know.

Cheers.
 
OK so do you now have the 'radial turned into a ring, or at least run on it's own <20A circuit from the board?

I would say that 1 or even 2 2.5mm radials for that kitchen is never going to work.

Yeah Rocker, It's on a ring now. I rarely put a 2.5mm radial in to a kitchen. I think the only times I've done it is when a customer has wanted their fridge freezer on a separate circuit.
 
Totally agree with you here, 9 times out of 10 this is exactly the case. Even worse is when the s/outlets and C/units are at the back of the cupboards, and only accessible through a cut-out made in the back board.... Accessible nonsense!!

Couldn't agree with you more! It's what happens when you have a reg that is open to interpretation. Plenty of people take the easy and lazy option.
 
Back to the bonding, as I understand it: If the main bonds are too small, i.e 6 mm it is permissable to leave as is as long as there is no 'obvious deterioration' if the customer won't pay. However this must be marked on the EIC or MWC. If there are no main bonds you cannot do any work without them being installed first.

This is after a long discussion with my scheme assessor
 
Back to the bonding, as I understand it: If the main bonds are too small, i.e 6 mm it is permissable to leave as is as long as there is no 'obvious deterioration' if the customer won't pay. However this must be marked on the EIC or MWC. If there are no main bonds you cannot do any work without them being installed first.

This is after a long discussion with my scheme assessor



That may very well be the case
If there is no sign of thermal damage blah blah

The question we need to ask ourselves then is why have a regulation that states this, that, or the other is required if we can on occasions, when it suits, ignore those regulations, even with the nodding head of these scheme assessors :rolleyes:

The Iee regs are sometimes twisted and manipulated to overcome reluctance to do the right thing,this is the case as well with the accessability manipulations
 
Right it doesn't matter what your personal opinions are guys, when it comes to installing sockets in kitchen cupboards it is an acceptable practice. You cannot decide that someone is lazy or incompetent should they decide to do this.
The only time an isolator is required is when the socket is behind an integrated appliance i.e when you have to dismantle it to get to it. I might also point out that installing a socket in a cupboard for say a washing machine is far better than installing it behind it where leaks etc could damage it. Just because you have to move a few plates etc doesn't make it inaccessible.

Everything else that the OP noted is spot on.
 
Right it doesn't matter what your personal opinions are guys, when it comes to installing sockets in kitchen cupboards it is an acceptable practice. You cannot decide that someone is lazy or incompetent should they decide to do this.
The only time an isolator is required is when the socket is behind an integrated appliance i.e when you have to dismantle it to get to it. I might also point out that installing a socket in a cupboard for say a washing machine is far better than installing it behind it where leaks etc could damage it. Just because you have to move a few plates etc doesn't make it inaccessible.

Everything else that the OP noted is spot on.


I take it then, ...This is ''Your'' personal opinion!!
 
in my opinion, kitchens are for cooking food and washing the dishes after meals. that requires 1. a cooker. 2 a sink. 3. a microwave for hot meals when she is out. 4 a kettle and toaster. 5.fridge/freezer. everything else should be in the wash house on a separate feed.
 
No I think you'll find it's explained in the electricians guide to the building regulations. That aside my point is people need to stop acting like witch hunters, just because someone chooses to do a job another way. As long as it complies there shouldn't be a problem.
 
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