Kitchen cuffufle

[electromonkey]

Just after some advice/opinions really gents,

I completed a rewire last week of a small bungalow. When I went to quote for the job, the customer said that the kitchen had been re wired when a new kitchen had been installed and that it was on its own circuit so I didn't need to include it on the quote.

On starting the job, I found that all was not well and informed the customer. On my last day of the job, the electrician who wired the kitchen turned up with his invoice and cert for the work he his firm had carried out. A heated debate then started over the following points....

1 No earth bonding to the gas or water supplies and the mains earth was also insufficient.

2 The kitchen had been wired as a radial circuit.

3 The origin of the new radial circuit cam via a 30a JB that was already connected to the original ring, with a spur already running from it.

4 There were sockets installed in cupboards below the work tops with no isolator switches.

5 The work was carried out on a MWC

When the customer asked me to take the electrician from the other firm through the list, he believed he had done nothing wrong as he had told the customer that the bonding was required as he was working on the job but they didn't want to pay for the work and that the work he carried out only required a MWC. He also claimed that the radial circuit (which has an oven, washing machine, microwave, kettle, toaster and deep fat fryer plus others) was acceptable and ok run via a spur hence his MWC!

My interpretation of it is that points 2 and 3 are definite no nos.

With point one, I don't know if this is because of years of standard working practice for me but I was under the impression that when you carry out any work that requires any certification, all earthing to the gas, water and mains must be brought to standard. If when you quote for a job and the customer asks for the bonding not to be done then you don't carry out any work, if you forget to quote for this when pricing a job then tell the customer, if the customer refuses to pay, you still have to carry out the work and take the hit. Am I correct with this or not?

Finally, with point 4, I see this quite regularly and the argument always seems to come down to interpretation over what is and isn't accessible. For me personally, If I install any socket or outlet in to a kitchen cupboard, I always install an isolator switch for it.

Your thoughts on this would be appreciated. At present, my customer is refusing to pay for the work carried out in their kitchen based on what I have told them. Obviously if I'm wrong on any of these points, I need to let my customer know.

Cheers.

 

[Engineer54]

Never seen or read that publication Voltimax, but i seem to recall most of the official type publications tend to call for electrical outlets etc, be mounted within the building fabric, and not on temporary structures. That would normally mean, being mounted above the worktop, or behind appliances.


Personally, i think this question of accessibility in kitchens/utility rooms is a very grey area that should be clarified once and for all. But that doesn't mean Cart Blanche for sticking Cooker control units and other outlets at the back of cupboards that need virtually emptying to gain any form of access too them....

 

[telectrix]

Never seen or read that publication Voltimax, but i seem to recall most of the official type publications tend to call for electrical outlets etc, be mounted within the building fabric, and not on temporary structures. That would normally mean, being mounted above the worktop, or behind appliances.


Personally, i think this question of accessibility in kitchens/utility rooms is a very grey area that should be clarified once and for all. But that doesn't mean Cart Blanche for sticking Cooker control units and other outlets at the back of cupboards that need virtually emptying to gain any form of access too them....

well agreed. grey areas need common sense. that's why there is defined scope. so as to show what NOT to do.

 

[Voltimax]

That publication Engineer 54 is published by the IET.

teletrix, it has nothing to do with defined scope.

As I said before, but you seem determined to argue the point. There may be several ways/interpretations to carry out a said task, just because others don't choose your way doesn't make them incorrect

Just to clarify though, I will put sockets in cupboards if I have to, but I do prefer to put them closer to the appliance, but that isn't always possible.

 

[telectrix]

That publication Engineer 54 is published by the IET.

teletrix, it has nothing to do with defined scope.

my post related to things like plumbers and kitchen fitters fixing sockets etc to the 3mm thick cardboard backs of cupboards, etc. no disrespect to defined scope bods who do the job right.

 

[Voltimax]

Teletrix I quite agree with you. Sockets should never be fitted to the back of a B&Q kitchen cupboard

When I do install sockets in cupboards I prefer to mount them high and to the front.

 

[Engineer54]

Just goes to show, you can't even trust the IET to get things right anymore.
So they say it's fine to fix cooker control units and other electrical outlets to temporary structures now do they .... How times change, funny how it's always to a lower level though!!!!

 

[Voltimax]

Well they could hardly say otherwise when lights have been fitted to the underside of cabinets since the year dot.

Did you know that insurance companies consider kitchen units to be part of the building fabric? The ruling used to be that installing socket outlets to to anything other than the fabric of the building was undesirable.

 

[Engineer54]

Nothing surprises me anymore voltimax, seems like everything is on a downward spiral these days. ..lol!!!.

 

[Voltimax]

So you agree VOLTIMAX that it was acceptable to run a radial circuit from a 30a JB, protected by a 30a fuse, from a spur? IIRC i was always taught one point allowed from a point on the ring, not multiple ones and certainly not in a kitchen like the OP says with microwave, kettle, toaster etc..

Also in effect hes added a his own circuit albeit wrong, it should be notifiable and not on a MWC, plain and simple he is a cowboy and i do question why you think he has done nothing wrong :S

Isolators for sockets in cupboards is good practice but not a requirement, i do fit them myself, yes it takes that bit longer however i take pride in being a electrician and carrying the jobs out to a high standard

I'm very pleased that you take pride in your work and that you're thorough, however I wish you'd be more thorough when reading through threads. At no point have I said that it was acceptable to run a radial circuit from a 30a JB, protected by a 30a fuse, from a spur. I only pointed out that there was nothing wrong with sockets in cupboards. I did actually say that everything else the OP pointed out was spot on. Maybe you need a visit to specsavers?

By the way, don't shout my name at me as I may take offense

 

[Voltimax]

I wonder if you'd be bothered if I took offense if I was stood in front of you?
You should have noticed that I put a winking smiley in my post, which indicates I'm jesting. I think my original post was clear enough as no one else jumped on me the way you have.
Wind your neck in.

 

[Voltimax]

Just another keyboard warrior, we can all play hard man on a public forum, jesus christ grow up

I'm not playing hard man vernam616. It could be argued that you're getting abusive from the safety of your keyboard. I told you to wind your neck in because you're becoming unnecessarily rude when there's no need. As I said before, you're the only one that misread my post and it is widely recognized that when typing in capitals on forums it simulates shouting. Again I put a smiley in there to show I'm only jesting with my comments.

I don't need to play hard man on forums and I'm no keyboard warrior.

 

[Spudnik]

Indeed, this thread is a little old, therefore.....