Part P & the 17th Edition. | Page 8 | on ElectriciansForums

Discuss Part P & the 17th Edition. in the Electrical Wiring, Theories and Regulations area at ElectriciansForums.net

How To Improve Part P

Scrap defined scope

I've lost count of jobs that i have attended where a new boiler has been installed and bonding to the services has been upgraded to current regs only to find on closer inspection that the 10mm bond to the clamp on the gas meter is joined to the original clamp with undersized cable and shoved into the cavity with the hole resealed.​

I have spoken to a gas guy who informed me he was worried about the lack of technical advice offered on his part p course,the whole of the class filled in a certificate together, they were showed how to wire 2way lighting on a stairwell and if they asked any questions they were reminded exactly what parts of thier book to read that would be covered in the exam.​

Would a defined scope installer be able to correctly identify different earthing arrangments, or understand fully the results taken on a ring final test before they add an extra socket or spur. I imagine some would but i would guess the majority would not. This means that potential faults may get overlooked and the only people to benifit from this situation is the course providers.​

Conclusion

Scrap defined scope, its potentially dangerous and confuses the customer and does not benifit part p in any way except to make it a joke!​
 
This whole situation STINKS ! nothing more nothing less !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! what the rule makers are saving is gas is dangerous BUT electricity ISNT !!!!!!!!!!!! what makes me mad is ANYONE can do most electrical jobs including domestics without any knowledge AT ALL about the dangers that pose from shoddy electrical work eg an adition or alteration to an electrical circuit ! minor works my butt to us it might be BUT to joe public these installs could STILL pose a danger of badly installed workmanship ! it really is a sore subject for me as ive been to sort out some real crap and dangerous installs BECAUSE the diy bloke or doll CAN as non notifyable !!!!! WHY cant we have the same as gas installers ? non QUALIFIED CANT touch as simple as that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
There are an infinite number of dangerous tasks that the householder and members of the public can undertake. Should we allow them/us to climb up ladders, replace a roof tile, point the chimney, fit a new staircase. How many deaths are due to electrocution in the home each year and compare that to the 3000 or so in car crashes-should we criminalise home car mechanics?

This idea that we should regulate against the incompetent, those lacking experience or stupid if taken to its logical conclusion would result in everyone having to pay a specialist for every task that was beyond his or her qualified experience.

The role of the professional is to serve the public, if Joe public makes a mess of the electrics in his house the professional electrician puts it right. It is the demonstration of competence and skill at a fair price that elevates the professional electrician into the premier league: while the rogues and incompetent languish in some lowly non league division.

The need for a comprehensive electrical report when a house changes hands goes a long way toward remedying electrical malpractice. The incompetent amateur will be slowly worked out of the system because there will be no financial advantage in doing work, or paying a cowboy for work that has to be put right by a skilled electrician at a later date.

The status of electricians is best raised by focusing on doing good work. People in every area of endeavor who provide quality service at a reasonable price succeed in the long run.
 
Ill be honest Part P is another tax on electricians now made more difficult with the wholesalers selling CDU's to the general public for peanuts i have a board covered in pics of dodgy electrics some from rented properties and some potential fire pics as all you guys have seen over the years ,how many times do you go into some ones house and they say well i just added this extra socket found one in an elderly couples house wired in bell wire joined with terminal block under the carpet nice eh not notified not done correctly just bodged who is to stop them
 
There are an infinite number of dangerous tasks that the householder and members of the public can undertake. Should we allow them/us to climb up ladders, replace a roof tile, point the chimney, fit a new staircase. How many deaths are due to electrocution in the home each year and compare that to the 3000 or so in car crashes-should we criminalise home car mechanics?

Should we use the same argument with gas installs ?
 
Should we use the same argument with gas installs ?

How are we different to gas installers?
Anyone can buy gas fittings and products the same as electrical.
Anyone can carry out the work as long as it's tested, connected and commissioned by a Gas Safe registered engineer. This is not allowed under part p as you can only certify your own work (or go down the labc route).
There is nothing to stop anyone carrying out other plumbing work, I'm in the process of moving a radiator now.

The main difference is that plumbers are not constantly whining about the need for professionalism in their trade.

And how is part p a tax?
It costs me £1.50 to notify a job and that's paid to the niceic not hmrc, the same as my annual fee.

Although to be fair I am paying more tax since part p because of the extra work it's generating for me.
 
‘Part P’ or should it be ‘All Poo’

I have been running my own electrical contracting business for the past four years and have been Part P full scope with ELECSA before I transferred to NICEIC, big mistake, purely for marketing reasons as the NICEIC are more popular, (but certainly NOT the best). They have builders, plumbers in there as it’s easier to pass, hence more membership, more money for them.

Having paid my annual Part P fee and registering every job at £1.50+vat with Elecsa, it cost £3 with
NICEIC, £1.50 for LABC and £1.50 for consumers insurance which is compulsory with NICEIC. (Yes you pay your customers insurance for the work you have done.) With Elecsa it is an option and the consumer pays it if they want to, but not you. Another money making spinner for NICEIC and you guessed it, it’s NICEIC’s own insurance.

So Part P, does it work and if so, for who?

Well it’s a tough time out there with stiff competition and price’s dropping through the floor and competing with ‘non Part P’ registered, companies and individuals I was dropping my prices and still losing work and had to make 3 electricians redundant. It was time to get tough myself so I reported some of these Non registered’ electricians to Elecsa and NICEIC. Both were not interested as they told me they only administer Part P, not police it!!. One advised I report to the LABC, so I did.

The LABC told me that they will only look into it if safety or building regs had been compromised and if I had sufficient evidence, although this did not mean they would take action. They would NOT take action for someone just not registering a Part P job if no ‘actual’ regulation had not been adhered to.

This would cost too much and they do not have the manpower resources available. The chap at LABC I spoke to said they are aware of the problem and appreciates my concern but there are ‘to many’ electricians as well as the public doing work that should be certified and it is an impossible task to deal with. He also mentioned that B&Q don’t help as they sell consumer units and have wiring diagrams mounted above the selves showing the public how to connect them!! This is encouraging the public to ‘have a go’ and no mention on these boards that it is against the law or that this work must be certified.

Good point.

I could not believe it!! The so called ‘powers at be’ are powerless!!

I asked myself “Why am I paying £460, plus a days unpaid time for the assessment and paying £1.50 for each job, (£3.00 with NICEIC) I register. What’s in it for me and who benefits apart from the likes of ELECSA, NICEIC etc.

All these organisations want your money but do nothing for it. They are even in competition with each other. I have had email marketing from NAPIT to transfer to them as they had a better deal than ELECSA and NICEIC.

B&Q don’t give a dam about how they effect your business or Part P with what they sell, they just want to make many more £Millions.
ELECSA, NICEIC, NAPIT They want to make money out of us but don’t support us.
LABC are aware of the problems but don’t want to know, it cost them to much.

Joe Public, well do they know what part P is? They just require a cheaper job doing as possible. It doesn’t matter whether your Part P or not. I had two people last year ask if I was Part P registered, one of these jobs was to replace a light fitting in the lounge which of course is not a Part P requirement, the other thought Part P was PAT, Portable Appliance Testing. The public are unaware of it’s existence or the ones that do get there ‘wires crossed’ and misinterpret what it is and so to do a lot of electricians.

Do you ever hear in the press or trade magazines of anyone getting prosecuted? There were a few when Part P was first introduced. Is there any publicity or advertising campaign for Part P? No because it cost to must and no organisation will put money into it.

Well enough is enough when my Part P lapsed at the end of September 2010, I decided to ‘pull the plug’ and I did not renew my Part P and won’t be doing either unless things change, very unlikely with government cutbacks there will be even less resources available.

I am all for a registered system but by ONE organisation similar to how Gas Safe is operated not five competing with each other for business.

We electricians are all round losers when it come’s to Part P. If all current Part P registered electricians refused to renew there Part P when due then this may finally send out a message and when these organisations suffer financially as a result only then will they do something.

Mazdaman
 
Well presented,most feel as you do
unfortunately most of us dont seem to have the backbone to act as you have

The end is nigh for part p though
My veiw is that it will quietly fade away as sparks lose all patience and interest with it
The peak of people registering has probably been reached, and the downwards spiral wont be far behind or it may have even began
 
spot on mazdaman, I've been part p registered with elecsa for 4 years,priced a job last year for bathroom electrics but the house holder got a cheaper price and went with them.2 months ago got a phone call off the house holder to say that the bathroom lights were tripping and the original contractor couldn't find the fault.So the good lad that i am i went down to see what they had done.As the lady of the house showed me the bathroom that had been completed (the one that i was under cut on) she was pointing to the lights that had been installed, but it wasn't the lights that got my attention it was the electric towel rail that was fitted directly into the shower enclosure.I phoned elecsa to report it and they said because the installer wasn't registered with them that there was nothing they could do, the only thing would be the customer to report them to trading standards.My renewal is due in march 370+vat.So i pay the renewal,pay the notifications,lose out on jobs and when i report a cowboy nothing can be done.So i think its time to cancel direct debit.
 
Ok you have given up on being Part P registered. As an example.

My daughter who lives in the UK (I don't) had her house rewired as part of an extensive refurb. Her electrician, 65 years old and lifetime electrician but not Part P forged the papers and Building Control checked his registration status and refused to pass the work. After such an abuse of trust my daughter had the builder expose all the electricans work so that it could be fully inspected by registered electrician. After being threatened to be sued by my daughter as well as considering whether it was a police matter he paid for the builders work, the electricians charges and expenses that my daughter had run up in bringing the matter to a solution.

If you want to break the law you have to determine at what level of honesty you want to function at. Are you going to advertise or describe yourself as fully competent but cannot certify work or don't tell people, and rely on them being gullible?

On this website the less competent and law breakers as appropriately called cowboys, everything you write about present injustices I agree with, joining the lawbreakers, however attractive at first glance, is not the way forward.
 
If you are referring to Mazdaman's post he is not proposing to break the law. He is a competent electrician and he is just not accepting the responsibility for notification. It is perfectly legal for him to do notifiable work, it just falls on the client to do the notification if they choose to use a non part P registered electrician. He is not saying he will not certificate work or not do it to BS 7671.

Your case is completely different, the person in question was attempting fraud.
 
My renewal is due in march 370+vat.So i pay the renewal,pay the notifications,lose out on jobs and when i report a cowboy nothing can be done.So i think its time to cancel direct debit.

Until such time sanctions are imposed on the scum of our industry why should you pay some **** to regulate you ? If more people woke up and smelt the coffee the part p scam would collapse and the dole queues would be full of people who could never practice what they preached because the scum would under cut them as well as us.

Good on you for being a realist.
 
So by dropping out of your relative scheme and saving £370, and breaking the law by not notifying labc, you will be able to drop your prices by so much that you will be able to undercut all the other law breakers out there.

I don't think so.
 

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