Part P

[Guest77]

It is a Building regulation, thats right a Building regulation, not a Electrical qualification. If you read it (you can download it on-line) then you will see that some works, and only some as it is getting less now needs to be notified to the local building control. Now there is nothing to suggest an Electrician need notify the local building control authority, nothing at all anywhere, this is a myth, and a myth we are all getting fed up with. The customer is duty bound to do this just like if they decided to have a loft conversion or indeed a extension on their home. To be competitive some electricians join a scheme so they can notify for the customer on their behalf and the fees are usually a couple of quid instead of the 2-300 the local authority would charge the customer if an Electrician didn't do it for them, this way the customer gets to save some money and the Electrician wins work. The schemes have a policy which they suggest if they get people to join them they will guarentee to the local authority the people they approve are competant, for this privilage they take 400-500 off these people, usually Electricians, but some Plumbers and Kitchen Fitters join as well, The local authority building control then accepts the fact the people on these schemes are competant and do not go out to site to inspect the works, this is why the cost is just an administrative one at a few quid and not hundreds. If you are a competant Electrician for example with a Gold card and plenty of experience why do you need to pay a scheme hundreds of pounds a year to have them tell the Local authority you are competant? If you are Competant then get stuck in and start work. If the work you do does need to be notified then you can ask the customer to do it or include an extra couple of hundred on top of your quote for you to do it. There is no judge in the whole of the UK who will find you guilty of anything wrong doing if you carry out work to BS7671 correctly without being a member of a scheme, we don't need them do we? so why are we paying them 500 a year? I can confirm I no longer pay them, I have left the NICEIC, I am competant, I have over 30 years experience, I will not give them 500 quid to tell someone else I am competant.


Please do not keep going on about being part p qualified, it is all Rollocks, rant over.

 

[Gavin A]

Gavin, I think you're missing the point.
To reiterate Trev's and many others, it's not Part P as such, it's the Councils and Schemes using Part P, the invention of the 'DI', and the such EASY ability to get registered as 'Competent' then allowed on a register, that annoys.
You can't learn a trade in a few weeks.
The market is being flooded to saturation with novices.

yes, I get it (I figured that out myself the hard way, prior to employing a spark instead for that side of things 4 years ago after realising it wasn't as simple outside the classroom) but as trev asked, what are you going to do about it?


ps as a comparison, the MCS scheme for renewables that used to be a piece of **** to get into, introduced competency requirements in March that mean that a new entrant to any of the renewables schemes has to at last have an NVQ level 3 in the core competency involved, eg electrical or plumbing / heating, or 3 years relevant experience. Now personally I'm not entirely convinced by this approach, as it would allow a spark to become certified for solar PV after just doing a 3 days course in it, which for me is nothing like enough training in that technology, but at least it's better than the previous situation. It probably would have meant that I and many others would never have been able to start up our companies as we merely had degrees in the renewables side of things (and over a decade since I'd worked with my first solar system), and that apparently counts for nothing, but that's one side of the industry that is policed by the exact same competent persons schemes that has introduced this requirement recently, so it might not actually be that difficult to get them to introduce something more stringent on the electrical side as well.

They're also introducing random inspections of something like 1000 installations a year, which is about 1%, so not brilliant, but a lot better than none.

 

[Silly Sausage]

She has mate I can vouch for that

Are they covered in silky black fur as well?

 

[Gavin A]

Gavin you just talked a hell of a lot of sense. A lot of that is exactly what I want to see but (and it's a huge but) the scams will not allow that to happen because it's killing the goose that lays the golden egg/ the gift that just keeps giving.
That's why I and many others want to see them out of the equation because all they're interested in is their salary and pension schemes. They don't give a flying fig about what they are supposed to do and claim to be doing. Driving up standards.
I'll respond point by point in the morning because just now I've had a few and I'm watching Biffy Clyro from T in the Park (fantastic btw) and I'd probably struggle to be coherent

Fair enough, and thanks, I was hoping i wasn't wasting my time entirely with that post.

The schemes also owe their existence to part p legislation, without this giving them a virtual monopoly on this process they'd cease to exist pretty fast.

I get the impression that they're aware they took a beating at the recent commons inquiry, and that they realise they need to up their game to avoid the potential for a repeat performance not accepting their assurances, and deciding to maybe go down the JIB route instead, or set it up for electricians to register directly with building control etc.

That's what scares them IMO, not the potential for a few experienced sparks to just drop off their books and just give up on the whole notifications thing, as those sparks would be easy to dismiss and paint as being in the wrong for operating illegally.

 

[amckay]

GavinA I think you need to re-read that.
First sentance is all you need to know.

I really don't.

Well your clearly missing the point that is made and valid.

As for your second to last post I can agree with that but I think the method in their madness of doing a 3day course in PV was to give people a bit of knowledge (albeit not enough) to get into it. Once working you gain knowledge. I'm not saying its right and I'm not saying its wrong.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Tony and others are calling for sparks to break the law in order to make a point.



Except that Tony's trying to make out that they wouldn't actually be breaking the law when they clearly would.

yet more rubbish.

again:

ITS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PROPERTY OWNER/PERSON ORDERING THE WORK TO NOTIFY LABC...NOT THE ELECTRICIAN.

Honestly Gavin.....you really need to keep a lid on some of these ridiculous statements your making.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So what do we do to fight the malaise within the trade Gavin?
Just sit down and let the likes of Emma Clancy tickle our tummys?

It's the scams that have caused this mess that we're faced with now mate, and everyone who continues to pay them is complicit as far as I'm concerned.

They need electricians, electricians don't need them.

she can tickle my tummy.....as long as i can tickle her fancy...

 

[GLENNSPARK]

and if she rubs my belly and makes a wish...it might come true...

 

[trev]

she can tickle my tummy.....as long as i can tickle her fancy...

I'd rather stick pins in my eyes mate. She's the enemy!
I wouldn't touch her with a borrowed one. Dirty!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

What's the line...give the installer a chance to rectify before going further?
Hahahaha...not much chance in that particular case!
Wonder what happened?

ask Paul Daniels...

 

[telectrix]

talking a bout emma clancy........ if you stop feeding the troll, it will wither and die.

 

[Gavin A]

yet more rubbish.

again:

ITS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE PROPERTY OWNER/PERSON ORDERING THE WORK TO NOTIFY LABC...NOT THE ELECTRICIAN.

Honestly Gavin.....you really need to keep a lid on some of these ridiculous statements your making.

which bit of the legislation are you having trouble with?

you're the person who's carrying out the work, not the person who requests the work to be done, therefore it's your responsibility to ensure building control are notified,

It's about as clear as it can get in the legislation without specifically spelling it out for each trade individually, and there have been sparks successfully prosecuted for failing to notify building control, so I really don't understand why this seems so hard for you to grasp.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

talking a bout emma clancy........ if you stop feeding the troll, it will wither and die.

i thought she was being painted as a beautiful flower by her employers...

 

[Engineer54]

The electrical side of the LABC's is and always has been weak in their own right. The Engineers they employ are generally those that just couldn't make the mustard out in the real world. Same goes for the electricians they employ. Most of the apprentices that went through their training with the old LABC set-up's left as soon as they became qualified, as it was a dead end job with little to no chance of progression.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

which bit of the legislation are you having trouble with?

you're the person who's carrying out the work, not the person who requests the work to be done, therefore it's your responsibility to ensure building control are notified,

It's about as clear as it can get in the legislation without specifically spelling it out for each trade individually, and there have been sparks successfully prosecuted for failing to notify building control, so I really don't understand why this seems so hard for you to grasp.

read this:

[h=1]Building Regulations in England[/h][h=3]What is Part P of the building regulations?[/h]Since 2005, all electrical work in dwellings in England and Wales whether carried out professionally or as DIY, and whether or not the work is notifiable to a building control body (see below), must meet the requirements of Part P of the Building Regulations. In April 2013 the requirements for England were amended.
Compliance with Part P is intended to keep you and your family as safe as possible from electrical hazards.
The requirements of Part P apply to new dwellings and to any alterations or additions to the electrical installations of existing dwellings, including full or partial rewires.
Part P states that anyone carrying out electrical work in a dwelling must ensure that reasonable provision has been made in the design and installation of the electrical installations in order to protect any persons who might use, maintain or alter the electrical installation of that dwelling from fire and injury, including electric shock.
[h=3]Who is responsible for making sure that electrical work in your home meets the requirements of Part P?[/h]By law, the homeowner or landlord must be able to prove that all electrical installation work meets Part P, or they will be committing a criminal offence.
Local authorities have the power to make homeowners or landlords remove or alter any work that does not meet the requirements of the Building Regulations.
[h=3]What electrical work is notifiable?[/h]From April 2013 electrical work in a dwelling, or associated with its surroundings, is notifiable to a local building control body where the work includes:
• the installation of a new circuit, whether at low voltage (typically 230 V) or extra-low voltage); or
• the replacement of a consumer unit (fusebox); or
• any alteration or addition to an existing circuit in a special location*, whether at low voltage (typically 230 V) or extra-low voltage
*A special location is a room containing a bath or shower, swimming pool or a sauna heater.
An alteration or addition to an existing circuit in a room containing a bath or shower is notifiable only where carried out in the space surrounding a bath or shower.
An alteration or addition anywhere within a room containing a swimming pool or sauna heater is notifiable.
[h=3]What do I need to do before electrical installation work can be carried out in my home?[/h]You must first check whether the work is notifiable. If it is then you must either;
• employ an electrician who is registered with one of the Government-approved scheme providers; or tell (‘notify’) your local-authority building-control about the installation work before work begins.
From April 2014 you will also be able to employ a non-registered electrical installer who has appointed a registered third party certifier to carry out the required inspection and testing of the work both during and on completion.
[h=3]The benefits of using a registered electrician[/h]We strongly recommend that you use a registered electrician to do any electrical work in or around your home. If you use a registered electrician, you can expect to have safe electrical installation work done, as the work should meet the UK national standard, BS 7671 (Requirements for Electrical Installations). You will not have to deal with building control directly and when the work is finished you should receive:

• an Electrical Installation Certificate or, where applicable, a Minor Electrical Installation Works Certificate that confirms the work meets BS 7671; and

• a Building Regulations Compliance Certificate that confirms the work meets the Building Regulations.

If the work carried out by the registered electrician doesn’t meet the requirements of the Building Regulations, you will have access to a formal complaints procedure.
You can also choose to take out an insurance-backed guarantee when you have the work done, and, if the work is later found not to meet Building Regulations, you can make a claim.
[h=3]What if I don’t use a registered electrician?[/h]If you use an installer who is not a registered competent person, he or she must notify the registered third-party certifier within five (5) days of completing the work. The registered third-party certifier will then, subject to the results of the inspection and testing being satisfactory, complete either an Electrical Installation Condition Report (based on the model shown in BS 7671) or one that has been specifically developed for the purposes of Part P and give it to the person ordering the work.
[h=3]How do I find a registered electrician?[/h]We recommend that you follow some simple suggestions before you choose an electrician. Click here to find the best way to search for a competent electrician.
For more information on Part P, click here to visit the planning portal on the Department for Communities and Local Government website.

then get back to us.

(copied & pasted from electrical safety first website).

Building Regulations in England - Electrical Safety First

 

[Silly Sausage]

You're wasting your time Glenn, too many sheep around.