Payment Companies

[flyingsausage]

My main problem with agencies is you are not paid anything extra for the employers NI or the holiday pay that they ant their clients are saving.
You are also mostly paid under the rate these days with no extra for overtime.

I was offered a job last year where the agency was paying £13 an hour for all hours Monday to Friday(12 hour shifts) and then the agency was also paying £17 an hour all hours at the weekend (10 hour shifts).
The payment company you had to go through set a percentage of your wage to the side every week for holiday pay,and also charged £30 a week.
No expenses or traveling time was paid to agency sparks - the books in sparks got all they were due in overtime rates(time and a half and double time)and also had their SJIB holiday stamp paid every week.
A few agency sparks did all the hours and were coming out with £300 or more less than the books in sparks as if they did alot of hours they were also hit by employers NI coming off their already poor wages- this is not very fair.
And at the end of the job the agency sparks got their holiday pay minus the £30 fee and a big dose of tax.

My point is if the company can pay the books in guys the proper rates they can pay the agency guys the proper rates as well.This was a six month long job so any agency spark there for the duration was ripped of for thousands.

 

[flyingsausage]

I am only telling some of the stories that have happened to me recently by agencies.

I, like many other sparks simply do not have a choice but to work for them from time to time.
But I do know sparks that have not been able to get any books in work for years and had had no choice but to wrk for them in all that time.It has also forced to good sparks I know to leave the trade for poorer paid work just for the chance to have a regular job.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

thing is though....they say theres an oversaturation of the market at the mo in the electrical trade....but out of all those how many are actually qualified, competent electricians.....and how many are just cable pullers and 5 week wonders....

 

[VoltzElectrical]

thing is though....they say theres an oversaturation of the market at the mo in the electrical trade....but out of all those how many are actually qualified, competent electricians.....and how many are just cable pullers and 5 week wonders....

There are a lot of competent qualified sparks in this situation for your information. The problem here is a massive tax avoidance loophole being exploited by the agencies at the great expense of quality and desperate labour.

The sooner the HMRC closes this loophole, the better. Forget the de-skilling of labour, this is a far more pressing concern affecting many more people than the aforementioned issue.

You've got a lot of opinions Glennspark, many of which are valid. I hope that you are never in this situation at the end of your apprenticeship as I anticipate that this forum will be aflame with your embittered views.

This is a cancerous employment tactic that needs to be put to bed, but how to do it is something I don't readily have the answer to, although I will readily sign up to anything anyone has to suggest.

Perhaps it's up to me to suggest something? I will give it some thought. Maybe I will start a thread to gauge some opinion and possible ways forward.

Watch this space comrades,

 

[GLENNSPARK]

well i know i can be opinionated voltz......but i can cope with critisism n all....i wasn`t getting at anyone..my views arn`t aimed at anyone in particular....and i agree that its something that needs sortin.....i dont like the idea that folk are getting scammed...apparently legally....needs to go does that.....

 

[flyingsausage]

thing is though....they say theres an oversaturation of the market at the mo in the electrical trade....but out of all those how many are actually qualified, competent electricians.....and how many are just cable pullers and 5 week wonders....

I do not think anyone can have a correct answer for that but I can give my opinion - before the start of the downturn(which was four years ago in my book)there was aclaimed shortage of sparks.
The industry along with the Government of the time though of ways to deal with this instead of putting wages up to attract more apprentices into the trade.
They though up the domestic installer who does a five week wonder course and goes about telling all in sundry he is a spark.
They also thought that they would use these fact track courses to flood the trade with all these 'new sparks' to sort out the shortage problem.
And just when these five week wonders were comming out of their courses by the thousand the downturn happened and many electricial companies were thinking of ways to save money.

The main thing they did was to pump most of their sparks and use agency sparks getting paid less than the rate as their default manning of jobs.
The companies then said how can we save even more money and thought 'lets just use sparks mates and the improvers,who needs sparks anyway'and these guys will be cheaper to employ than sparks - and also lets just use an agency to get the rates down as low as possible.

This is in my book how there is now too many sparks in the country at this moment in time.
With many companies only using agency sparks now that is forcing rates down.
There are far too many agencies out there but the companies are the ones with all the power as a company can just keep phoning up companies till one will say 'yes we can get you approved 2391 sparks for £10 an hour'.
The companies like that fact and use it to their advantage to drive rates down,as they know there will always be sparks out there looking for work,or plenty of sparks mates willing to do the job for £7.50 an hour.

 

[flyingsausage]

well i know i can be opinionated voltz......but i can cope with critisism n all....i wasn`t getting at anyone..my views arn`t aimed at anyone in particular....and i agree that its something that needs sortin.....i dont like the idea that folk are getting scammed...apparently legally....needs to go does that.....

Well said - we are getting scamed by these scum agencies and scum employers that use them.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

2391 sparks for £10 per hour......well at one point i think it was £8 per hour....thing is though.....if all you are doing is going round replacing lamps...or something like that...you dont need to be 2391....but some of these agencys are still insisting on it....so thats a way of getting a 2391 sparks on the books for the kind of rate they want to pay for lamping up....or something like that....

 

[VoltzElectrical]

2391 sparks for £10 per hour......well at one point i think it was £8 per hour....thing is though.....if all you are doing is going round replacing lamps...or something like that...you dont need to be 2391....but some of these agencys are still insisting on it....so thats a way of getting a 2391 sparks on the books for the kind of rate they want to pay for lamping up....or something like that....

This is obfuscating the issue.

I you want lamps replacing, employ a mate.

If you want conduit installed, employ an improver.

If you want circuits wired, employ a spark.

If you want things tested, employ an approved spark.

BUT, and here is the CRUX of the issue...

Pay the appropriate rate. And pay it to the bloke through the appropriate channel. DON'T try to duck your obligations of NI contributions, when the guy is working for you for 6 months on daywork and try to claim he is self-employed then let him take it on the chin to the tune of nearly £30 a week off his wages for the privilege of getting paid.

This is the real issue here guys, the loopholes that are being exploited at the expense of the man at the coalface.

 

[Marvo]

How long has the payment company 'loophole' been exploited and why doesn't it sound like there's any legislation in the pipeline to close it?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

This is obfuscating the issue.

I you want lamps replacing, employ a mate.

If you want conduit installed, employ an improver.

If you want circuits wired, employ a spark.

If you want things tested, employ an approved spark.

BUT, and here is the CRUX of the issue...

Pay the appropriate rate. And pay it to the bloke through the appropriate channel. DON'T try to duck your obligations of NI contributions, when the guy is working for you for 6 months on daywork and try to claim he is self-employed then let him take it on the chin to the tune of nearly £30 a week off his wages for the privilege of getting paid.

This is the real issue here guys, the loopholes that are being exploited at the expense of the man at the coalface.

but the present status quo dictates otherwise....as you say here..it aint on....i actually sympathise with people forced into this position..i really do....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

How long has the payment company 'loophole' been exploited and why doesn't it sound like there's any legislation in the pipeline to close it?

well there wont be any legislation to close it will there....as the government can claim to be `creating employment opportunities`....and somebody someware...no doubt with influence over policy...will be making cash out of this racket.......

 

[Marvo]

So the UK government is happy with the status quo even though it's being used as a mechanism to avoid national insurance?

 

[VoltzElectrical]

How long has the payment company 'loophole' been exploited and why doesn't it sound like there's any legislation in the pipeline to close it?

I don't know Marvo, but it's catching on with a lot of agencies. As i have previously stated, I don't know the best way to address this phenomenon, maybe approach my local MP? i worked for an agency for 6 months last year, paying £18 a week to get paid by the umbrella company, so believe me, I know what it's all about.

Will the authorities listen? I doubt it.

This is only one of a few issues that need sorting out within the industry. The other main one is the need for electricians to have a 'license to practice' like they do in America, Australia, NZ to name a few. None of this competent person scheme rubbish that you pay annually for.

We need to stand up for our industry soon, but I fear we will not and that will be that.

any suggestions welcomed.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

So the UK government is happy with the status quo even though it's being used as a mechanism to avoid national insurance?

but if trying to appeal to a mass audience...such as an electorate....what grabs the headlines more?....a bit of NI the government missed out on....or falling unemployment figures?...