Ring vs Radial

[Des 56]

Can't sit on the fence any longer
Its Rings and Radials for me lol


Anyone ever installed say a 1.5mm radial for sockets and lights of each individual room ?

 

[Silly Sausage]

No. We've moved on now here in England, no 30W Pigmy bulb in each room and the wireless in the Parlour.

 

[Strima]

8. integrity of the original circuit layout is less likely to be abused or altered by homeowner /diyer.

They'll find a way, they always do.

 

[Guest55]

case proven ?
er , ok lol.

 

[Guest55]

They'll find a way, they always do.

but its less of a problem for radials when it happens.
which is why every other day we read threads on broken ring faults ;-)

 

[Silly Sausage]

Points 1 - 7 have their pros.
Point 9, irrelevant.

Point 8, see my 1 point. Out doos the rest.

 

[Guest55]

what the hell are you on about ?
read my challenge again , it was to come up with the longest list of pro's for each.
at least i took the trouble to put together a clear concise list.
you came up with 1 ?
well if you want to be unsporting about it and cop out , fair enough.
;-D

 

[Silly Sausage]

well so long as no-one takes my cheeky challenge too seriously , it may serve readers to think about all the design options in even simple domestic scenarios.

I'm not.

My 1 point still out weighs your 9 though

 

[Guest55]

of course it does , you win.

final score 1 - 9

 

[Silly Sausage]

Right, that's Ring v Radials sorted.......Next...

 

[Sparky Ninja]

Rings...

If you get a break in the cpc, the whole cct still has an earth; cpc break on a radial, no earth beyond that point.

also takes much less typing for a convincing argument

If your +1 for a ring final requires a fault to be in the radial then look at it this way.


Radial.

Break in cpc = socket outlet with no cpc = risk of electric shock = RCD* disconnect when imbalance occurs.

Ring final.

Break in ring final = no detection of fault as only one line conductor has slipped out = 2 x 2.5mm cables with a best case scenario current carrying capacity of 27A (surface clipped) protected by a 32A MCB = Overloaded cable = House Fire = Death




*assuming this argument refers to scenarios where 30mA RCD's are required for socket outlets <20A.


:30::30::30::30::30::30::30::30:

 

[Guest55]

i knew this as well widdler
one of the rings biggest advantages is also one of its biggest weaknesses - undetected breaks in the live.
but archy wasnt really up for reasoned debate lol.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

i knew this as well widdler
one of the rings biggest advantages is also one of its biggest weaknesses.
but archy wasnt really up for reasoned debate lol.

When the only argument for one type of a circuit is due to a fault in the other we've got to consider the alternative.

Personally I don't have a preference, I put selection down to functionality, demand and use.
But I do always inform people with the pro's and con's of both.

 

[Silly Sausage]

If your +1 for a ring final requires a fault to be in the radial then look at it this way.


Radial.

Break in cpc = socket outlet with no cpc = risk of electric shock = RCD* disconnect when imbalance occurs.

Ring final.

Break in ring final = no detection of fault as only one line conductor has slipped out = 2 x 2.5mm cables with a best case scenario current carrying capacity of 27A (surface clipped) protected by a 32A MCB = Overloaded cable = House Fire = Death




*assuming this argument refers to scenarios where 30mA RCD's are required for socket outlets <20A.


:30::30::30::30::30::30::30::30:

OK...failure of a cpc, then you're relying on the operation of the 'Additional' protection of an RCD, which quite a few people on this forum have stated that they are not to be 100% relied on.

A split ring, how often are you going to get >>20A down 1 leg for a significant length of time that it's going to fry a cable?


I'm sure this subject has been discussed by much higher beings than the likes of us and (to repeat myself) no definitive answer has been agreed on.




addition...

This argument is for domestic situation

 

[electric will]

I'm starting you use radials more and more, still ring normally in a kitchen though.
must say though bout a year ago wired some flats with rings came to testing and short between l and e found it between two sockets, all plastered up think chippy had put screw through cable fitting metal work for ceiling, running new cable at this stage not an option, it was about half way round the ring so made into two radials.
if it was radials in the first place this wouldn't have been an option

 

[Guest55]

A split ring, how often are you going to get >>20A down 1 leg for a significant length of time that it's going to fry a cable?

well if its a kitchen ring that has an undetected split , with the kettle , washing machine , dishwasher and tumble dryer and fan oven all fitted all close together on 1 wall of the kitchen , then its going to happen very frequently and for long periods.

 

[sedgy34]

I've got a house to do soon 4 levels going to wire each floor in radials and a kitchen ring

 

[Silly Sausage]

You've just picked up a few reels of 4mil cheap in Dudley then?

 

[cbw]

In fairness it will take a lot more than 27A to 'burn' a 2.5 cable

 

[Silly Sausage]

well if its a kitchen ring that has an undetected split , with the kettle , washing machine , dishwasher and tumble dryer and fan oven all fitted all close together on 1 wall of the kitchen , then its going to happen very frequently and for long periods.

Well that would be a badly designed cct then!
Unless you've got an obsessively caring lass, that's never going to happen anyway.

 

[Adam W]

radials - pro's

1. no consideration needs to be given to balancing of loads across 2 legs
In a domestic situation you can't be sure of what's going to be plugged in where so that's not a consideration; if anything having a 32A ring makes that more flexible. On a radial the highest current using equipment should be plugged in to the nearest point to the CU which makes it more difficult with a radial, while with a ring you have 2 ways back to the CU.

2. Quicker to test
You still have to plug in to each socket. End to end doesn't take long, quick calculation and you can work out what you should be getting at each socket. Anyone who can't wrap their head around ring final testing probably shouldn't be doing the job in the first place.

3. Quicker to install
Again if you're reducing the capacity from 32A to 20A and thereby cutting out the last leg back to the CU this might be true, but it's not a true comparison. 2.5mm is quicker and easier to install than 4mm.

4. More flexible in cable layout to each point
You still need to run 2 cables either way.

5. Easier to add extra points at later date and with fewer restrictions with regards to where you can extend the circuit
You can spur off a ring. If the circuit is properly designed in the first place you shouldn't need to; a 'tree' arrangement would be a nightmare to find faults on.

6. Less chance of cross connections at the CU
Not with T&E, which would most likely be used in a domestic situation. If you're talking about singles you could say that about cross connection with other circuits.

7. Saves on cable when floors of a property dont require 32A of power , eg 2 bed terrace houses.
As I've said, it depends on the layout of the property. You could have one ring for all the sockets (maybe an extra cct for the kitchen) and split the lighting circuits differently.

8. integrity of the original circuit layout is less likely to be abused or altered by homeowner /diyer.
You could say that about any circuit. You can't account for what a DIYer/DIer is going to do after you've left, but an end to end at the EICR should pick this up.

9. Greater current capacity for the equivalent amount of cable used , eg
how have a ring main for the ground floor of a house - remove the midpoint cable and this leaves you with 2* 20amp radials - so you have a net gain of 8A for exactly no more cable.
You could say the ring option is 'over-engineered' which will give you some extra headroom for volt drop. Remember with a ring you're not splitting the circuit into 2 radials (although you have the option at a later date) so you can allow for greater diversity.

10. If the CPC breaks at some point you still have the CPC from the other leg.

11. You have the option at a later date to split the ring to make 2 20A radials for whatever reason.

12. With a ring you can draw a similar current using less ways on the board.

I said I'd add an extra 1 - turns out I found an extra 3!
That said, I'm not against radials, but they need to be used in an appropriate situation and not blindly used because they're 'the modern way of doing things'.

Sorry for the delay in reply - I went to the pub with my mate instead of sitting at home talking shop on the internet, although to be fair he's a spark as well so we did talk shop.

 

[sedgy34]

You've just picked up a few reels of 4mil cheap in Dudley then?

Lol using 1 mm, you know Dudley well?

 

[Guest123]

***Poll Added****

 

[Fin170]

No option for 4mm hybrid ring radials? :ihih:

To throw another spanner into the words, the customer probably won't have the installation tested regularly. We've also (accidentally) had entire houses on a single 20a ring with no problems...

 

[ExArmy]

you'd never catch me running in a 4mm radial, it's harder terminating 4mm as opposed to 2.5.

also, regarding the "well designed/poorly designed rings" , who the hell bothers to plan out a ring? even if you did 5 years later it would have been a waste of time as everything would get moved. I just couldn't imagine it, asking the customer at first fix stage where everything is going to go, they would not have a clue! and even if they did tell you, it would change as everything always does.

i prefer to use a 32A 2.5mm ring for the kitchen, and a 32A 2.5mm ring for the rest of the house if it's a decent size, if not then a 2.5mm 20A radial. but thats generally speaking, every job is different and needs assessed

 

[Knobhead]

People are just frustrating!
So long as power comes out of the socket the customer doesn’t give a ---- how it got there.
My own view is the radial is gaining popularity because of inexperienced installers. Be they electricians or DI’s (what ever one of them is).

 

[ipf]

Are we talking domestic alone. If so, much prefer rings in the vast number of cases. In commercial kitchens however, 4mm radials come in very useful in some instances. Can't see any problems terminating, I would suggest changing the sockets to those more suitable, if there are.
For the vote, I'll presume domestic.

 

[Amp David]

You need to use common sense then.

No :001_9898:

 

[Engineer54]

There are always pro's and con's to any method or type of circuit used. At least in the UK you have the choice of installing 2 types of circuits for small power outlets, ...and as such, a professional electrician will utilise both of these types (Ring or Radial) that best suits the power requirements and situation of the installation.

When either of these types of circuits are installed by experienced electricians, they will/should be, designed and installed to the appropriate current regulations and as such, as safe as each other. I'm not really interested in what DIY'ers or other incompetents may or may not subsequently do, that will always be beyond yours, mine, or anyone else's control.

True, a ring circuit requires a much higher competence level to test and fault find, which is probably why most of the fast track wanna-be electricians prefer Radials over Rings, regardless if a radial would be the most suitable circuit for a given situation or Not!! I think someone called the Ring circuit ''Old Fashioned'' Wonder what they would call a Radial circuit then, ....Modern?? ...lol!!!

The only thing that should determine whether a ring or radial circuit is chosen, should be based solely on the most cost effective method to satisfy the design and needs of that circuit. ...Not on unfounded or biased personal preferences!!!

On a final note, ...if Ring circuits are taken off the books, the final effect will be far more reaching than you first imagine. Remember the whole of the wall power accessory catalogue is based on and around the Ring Final Circuit!!!!

 

[somersetsparks]

My pet hate on an I&T is a board full of 16a radial circuits, I'd much rather test a board with 1 or 2 rings, rather then tracing every circuit out to find what it supplys.
think the standard 3 bed house should have 2x rings.

I don't see the argument for harder to wire etc. basically rings are just radials with an extra leg to go back to the board?
They also allow for plenty of capacity if the use chages, i.e. panel heaters etc.

Both types of circuits have their place, but in my book, The ring is still king!

 

[sedgy34]

People are just frustrating!
So long as power comes out of the socket the customer doesn’t give a ---- how it got there.
My own view is the radial is gaining popularity because of inexperienced installers. Be they electricians or DI’s (what ever one of them is).

Tony I have to disagree we are not inexperienced and we wire radials

 

[i=p/u]

As someone said its just an extra leg back.its a stupid topic . No offence poster

 

[Guitarist]

I bet there are many electricians who don't know how to fully test a ring, and so avoid it if possible. In fact, there have been a few posts on here by practising electricians, asking how to do so.

 

[Les Macaulay]

The main objection to the ring final circuit is the time and bother to test (and I don't mean simply testing for continuity of each leg of the ring). Extra work , extra time and I wonder if it's being done properly.

 

[Sparky Ninja]

I'm sure this subject has been discussed by much higher beings than the likes of us

It has, and I am.

 

[ipf]

It has, and I am.

Beam me up Widdler

 

[Sparky Ninja]

Remember the whole of the wall power accessory catalogue is based on and around the Ring Final Circuit!!!!

Makes little difference to an effectively designed radial system.

 

[sedgy34]

Ok fellas,ladies!
got a new big house soon to do with 4 levels,basement, groundfloor,1st floor,2ndfloor(loft)
Might do power like this
ground floor 2.5 radial,&a kitchen ring DB is on ground floor
basement 4mm radial
1st floor 4mm radial
2nd floor 4mm radial
we have wired loads of newbuilds etc nothing to do with being in experienced, nothing to do with not knowing how to test a ring etc
simply cause my design and I will be happy knowing upon testing the test results will be ok,also Easy for testing.

 

[rich.250]

My biggest hate with both is when people just use 2.5!! And don't take de rating into account.
The amount of insulation being put in now, it is hard to avoid using 4mm......

 

[Guest55]

10. If the CPC breaks at some point you still have the CPC from the other leg.

and if its a break in the L or N then you have a fault which remains undetected as all points remain working but all the while leaving potential for certain sections of cable to exceed their normal current rating , at the very least shortning the expected lifespan of the cable.

11. You have the option at a later date to split the ring to make 2 20A radials for whatever reason.


well splitting a ring can be a total faff if the sockets arent close together , nowhere near as flexible as being able to add a point from any other point as you can with a radial - your comment just reinforces my earlier advantage.

12. With a ring you can draw a similar current using less ways on the board.

hardly a problem when sparks are banging in 10 way boards in 2-3 bed properties.
anyway , a greater division of circuits reduces inconvience when a circuit trips.




I said I'd add an extra 1 - turns out I found an extra 3!
That said, I'm not against radials, but they need to be used in an appropriate situation and not blindly used because they're 'the modern way of doing things'.

Sorry for the delay in reply - I went to the pub with my mate instead of sitting at home talking shop on the internet, although to be fair he's a spark as well so we did talk shop.

so you came up with 3 pro's for rings ?
:-D