Smart Meter Tripping RCD

[Ines Spires]

Thought I would throw my tenant's problem regards Smart Meters (SM) into the mix, in the hope someone could maybe suggest what is going on?

May 2016 - tenants switch to E.org - no problem.
March 2017 - had Liberty 100 PAYG SM (top-Up via App) installed and immediately the RCD/fusebox starts tripping intermittently - every few hours, every day, after few days - see picture.
April 2017 - I contacted E.org and they stated that SM not cause switches to trip, fault is fusebox. Accept what they say.

Tripping continues and tenants check and monitor if appliances causing problem. None found.
BG electricians check home electrics 4 times and state domestic side and RCD all ok - Dec 2017, Aug 2018, Sept 2018 and Oct 2018.

After much elimination find Cause???!!!
Customer Top Up - when tenant tops up via app and then a few minutes later credit shows up on phone, then RCD immediately trips.
Supplier reading - after informing E.org about above and they do On Demand reading from their end, then RCD immediately trips.

E.org change SM Oct 2018 and tripping now worse.
BG check after SM change and state domestic side and RCD all ok.
E.org state that fault is RCD as have changed SM and thus are insistent they are not at fault.
BG believe it is SM, so I am between a rock and hard place.
Requested E.org replace SM with Dumb Meters as a way of eliminating or confirming SM is cause of tripping, but will only do if I pay.

Now starting case with Energy Ombudsman… And tenants’ life not good as now 3/4 times a day have to reset RCD.
Any ideas/advice?

 

[Silly Sausage]

WHAT CAN I DO?

I'd be demanding instant replacement with a regular pre-payment meter.

 

[Strima]

There’s no need to wrap the whole DB in foil. Wrap a foil sheet around a sheet of card a couple of times. Then wrap in some plastic sheet to insulate it if you wish.

Slide this in between the SM and DB. Observe the results. This is only a temporary fix to see if you can block the local RF emissions to the RCD.

Age of the DB has nothing to do with this and they’re talking big swinging fleshy ball things...

 

[Marvo]

Maybe a fly lead with an alaigator clip to earth would improve its effectiveness.

 

[marconi]

Ines Spires: Re: 9. Any other suggestions or combination of above??? Aaaargh, candles and wood burning stove???

Buy some heavy duty plastic sheeting and gaffer tape. If safe and practical, leave the meter enclosure door open. Make the innards of the enclosure watertight using the plastic sheeting and gaffer tape. Leave it this way for a week.

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[newbie1980]

i have a customer with exactly same fuseboard with exact same issues. I insisted on the old meter going back in

hey presto fault fixed

@Wilko
Yes, BG actually observe top-ups causing trip.
Re: Remote Testing - E.org electrician change SM-tripping worse, but he could not touch CU/domestic side. So as per Wilko above, E.org electrician himself suggested that if I got an Electrician out that day, the two could work together - he work on the SM, while my man work on CU/domestic side. PH Jones electr1.ician comes and E.org electrician not contactable! PH Jones confirm 4th time, domestic side all ok.

@Murdoch
Re: On Demand test - yes, every time E.org did test while I on call with them, RCD trips
1. Yes, CU is in daft place
2. AMD3 board help - no idea as I am ignorant
3. I suggested replace SM with Dumb meters but E.org rejected idea, unless I pay cost. But, will ask Monday if they can remotely switch off SM and make it Dumb Top Up

Pictures below CU open
Only RCD - red middle switch trip
Also, tenant tells me today, that when trip happens - Plug circuit all off, But Light circuit stay on (lights work).
View attachment 45297 View attachment 45298

 

[alasdairp]

This is almost certainly an RF interference issue as suggested by some of the posts above. Not only is the meter (RF in the top) VERY close to the CU, but the RF will travel up the tails into the CU.

# Ideally the smart-meter should be moved outside of the box.

# Did you actually try inserting screening between the SM and the CU? Idealy a piece of insulated Aluminium (c. 20 swg think) with a cut out to allow the tails to pass by? It should be Earthed with as short a lead as possible. That might sort it.

# I would swap the RCD for a new one - preferably a different make that will fit the CU ok. That is certainly well worth a try.

# If not, a 100nF X2 rated capacitor between across the mains L & N each side of the RCD should short out any differential RF. If it were an RCBO then you would also need Y rated capacitors to a good Earth on the incoming side. You would need someone who knows what they were doing, though!
e.g. (70p each in bag of 5; easy to fit - need sleeving)
B32922H3104M000 | EPCOS 100nF Polypropylene Capacitor PP 305 V ac, 630 V dc ±20% Tolerance B32922H Series | RS Components - https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/polypropylene-film-capacitors/1248412/

# You can get in-line RF mains filters but they are bulky and very expensive

 

[Octopus]

^^

“Ideally the meter should be moved out of the box”

Me thinks the supplier will say the CU shouldn’t be in the meter box and needs to be moved ....

 

[alasdairp]

^^

“Ideally the meter should be moved out of the box”

Me thinks the supplier will say the CU shouldn’t be in the meter box and needs to be moved ....

Actually, I agree with you there. But it is an old-ish installation and it is not uncommon to see this, especially in rented flats (etc). It would be a much bigger job to move the CU, and the CU was fine until the radio SM was fitted right up tight to it. I was mostly trying to show other ways that might well work and would be cheap, easy, effective and safe.

 

[sparks55]

This is becoming more and more amongst jobs posted on my builder and similar web sites
Always seems to be EON and EDF smart meters could it be installers ???

 

[marconi]

https://assets.publishing.service.g.../file/712151/2018_Q1_Smart_Meters_Report_.pdf

Page 5/18 Executive Summary third bullet:

To date, around 12.3 million smart and advanced meters have been installed in homes and businesses across Great Britain by both large and small energy suppliers – around 11.3 million (92 per cent) of these were installed in domestic properties and a further one million in smaller non-domestic sites.

With regards to the OP's reported Smart Meter/RCD problem it may well be that RF interference with this particular MEM RCCD 'is the most likely' cause. What I find surprising though is if RFI from Smart Meters is a potential problem to RCDs/RCBOs that there are not many, many more tripping problems being reported across the 12.3 million smart meters installed in the UK - I can find no reports of Smart Meter RFI-RCD tripping when I google. Nor can I find any installation instruction on minimum separation distance between Smart Meters and RCDs/RCBOs or any cautions about installing Smart Meters in close proximity to RCDs/RCBOs in safety critical supplies say in hospitals, or indeed operating mobile phones close to RCDs/RCBOs.

I remain dubious about RFI being the root cause of the RCD trips in the OP's case.

 

[Marvo]

Agree that the MEM RCD might be more sensitive than some of the other brands.

This is probably a one in a thousand or one in ten thousand issue where the brand of RCD, the lack of separation, the fact it's GSM not WiFi WAN, the poor GSM reception in the area resulting in higher transmission strengths and the CU and meter being in the same enclosure all create the perfect storm type arrangement for nuisance tripping.

Smart meters are still relatively in their infancy so the frequency of RFI problems with RCD's might not have been sufficient to warrant in depth investigations and official recommendations on distances etc. There's also the issue that with the bad press smart meters have had any RFI nuisance type reports are likely obfuscated and not openly discussed by the manufacturers and probably blamed on other things wherever possible.

 

[alasdairp]

When GSM handsets first came out and were easily and affordably available, it was found that in particular seats in one make of National Express (I think it was) coaches, the automatic gearbox would change gear incorrectly if the mobile phone was used. It happened many times as was well documented at the time. Non critical electronics (and that will include RCDs) only need to be OK at 3 V/m signal strength and close to a 2W peak GSM transmitter 30-50 V/m peak is not uncommon.

 

[marconi]

Ines Spires: I wondered if there was any news on this most interesting (for us) albeit annoying(for you) problem?

 

[marconi]

Ines Spires: Please put me out of my misery of not knowing and tell me if the problem has been fixed and how.

 

[Marvo]

I'm also still following this thread to see if any more info was obtained.