Thermodynamic Solar Panels

[solarsavings]

15? it used to be 5 My question was: where in the country are you as there is a network of installers being built and there maybe someone in your area already.

 

[jetski]

I'm in Suffolk, the company who quoted me is 1st Energy based in Colchester, Essex.

 

[solarsavings]

Well if you want a competitive quote (theirs isn't) let me know ;-)

 

[jetski]

Ok mate thanks, do you know anything about the 20 year incentive tarrif payback through the RHI I've looked at this but it's heavy going for me
http://www.decc.gov.uk/assets/decc/11/consultation/RHI/6453-rhi-consultation-domestic.pdf

 

[Jaycee]

The rhi payments are not yet in place, they hope to have it done summer 2013.

Any technology used ( Biomass, Air source heat pumps, Ground douce heat pumps and Solar thermal) since a set date ( think it's July 2009) will be eligible for payments from the date it was Installed.

The payments are payed over a 7 year period rather than 20, this is to make payback periods faster.

 

[solarsavings]

It looks like the thermodynamic system(as it's classed as solar thermal) will receive RHI for 7 years not 20. Gavin has posted a helpful guide on here I will see if I can find it.

 

[Jaycee]

Rhi payment of 17p per kwh, I think too.

They are going to monitor the take up, and run it like the FIT, they will drop payments if too popular, my advice is if ur gonna install any of the rhi technology, then do so now as u will get the top rate when it comes in, and will get payback to the date installed.

 

[The Solar King]

We are still no further forward with validation of this technology. No one gives straight answers and no one provides real life performance data for the UK or cold climate countries. I've given up asking. Quite frankly I am surprised Trading Standards and Advertising Standards haven't taken a close interest.

With regard to domestic RHI, the consultation was published by DECC last week. The headline figure for solar thermal is 17.3p/kWh. This will not give sufficient payback within the seven year qualification period. The door is open to justify a higher or different subsidy. One problem is DECC still have their heads up their backsides comparing everything to the ROC for offshore wind. This isn't apples with apples or even apples with elephants. It shows just how confused or perverted DECC's thinking is. No need to ask who is confusing and perverting them.

 

[jetski]

Thanks for all your input guy's, so I'm being told as a customer it's being paid over 20 years but from documented evidence it looks like it's likely to be 7 years, he did show me at what the minimum rates would be but if them rates still apply and it's minus 13 years I know for sure what I'll do.

 

[solarsavings]

The price he quoted you is twice what it should be too ;-)

 

[MCS Renewables]

For that sort of money you would be better of with a 3kW solar PV system , with a 20 year FIT tariff and just leave your immersion on for the hot water. We all know PV works!

There is also a discussion at very high level that this may thermodynamic technology may be re-classed as a "transpired solar collector" which will probably take it out of the RHI. The RHI is also not set in stone until the day starts and I would not trust the people in charge to alter things at the last minute.

Being as the next big "no win no fee" legal challenges are likely to be going after solar installers who oversold and overpromised on predictions I would not install any technology I was not 100% confident in. There is a solicitors advert to this affect every weekend in the better Sunday papers !

Selling this technology based on 20 year RHI returns which may be only be seven years or no payment at all would seem like opening myself up to massive problems I dont need.

 

[toomanylogins]

Hello,

Its Paul from complete picture here. To clarify for everybody this is an air source heat pump the only difference is instead of a fan coil unit you have a solar radiator on the roof. Therefore it's quieter (This will be a big deal in ther future) and you get a slightly better COP as you don't have a fan and you got a larger surface area to collect the heat. Energie.pt the manufacturer have some information on their website.

You can use our EN12831 calculation software to do the calculation. The only thing you need to know to calculate the RHI is the COP and the output temperature you are using for hot water and heating to calculate the savings. As with all heat pumps they work better with underfloor heating and good insulation.

RHI is a payment for generating your heat with renewable technology so in this case it's the electricity you save to generate the same amount of heat. RHI is using wind as the comparative case.

In my opinion these are probably directly comparable to a ground source heat pump in terms of efficiency COP of 4+ and probably cheaper to install. They only really make sense if you are off the gas grid.

regards
Paul

 

[The Solar King]

All well and good Paul, but where is the real life validated performance for cold climates? How is this going to work in winter with a water inlet temperature of 4deg C and an average ambient air temperature of 8 degrees regularly falling to below zero at the very time you require space heating and hot water?

Opinions and probably are no good. Evidence based real life data are good. Where is it?

 

[toomanylogins]

Solar King, Couldn't agree more. The BRE have a database of tested heatpumps where the cop has been measured but the take-up by manufacturers is relatively poor. Similarly we have e-mailed all of the MCS manufacturers on more than one occasion for inclusion of their data in the software but we get nowhere. A level playing field of test results under real-life conditions would be very useful. The criteria for inclusion in the MCS list should include performance testing. Also why have we got an MCS list and the BRE list, typical govt nonsense.

Apparently the thermodynamic panels are being used extensively in Scandinavia so some test data must be available.

 

[The Solar King]

Apparently I won the jackpot in the lottery, but can't find my ticket. It must be available somewhere.

Why is this equipment registered with MCS as solar thermal when it is clearly a heat pump? Could it be to avoid the performance criteria that now cover them?