Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

[highspark]

How can we put an end to this drivel? Why is there people out there unqualified and inexperienced bluffing their way into work. Taking work from fully qualified time served lads?Theres a couple in my area. Driving round in vans with schemes tatooed all over them. They look the biz - the outfit. But I know they are not electricians. They are chancers bluffing their way through. The 17th Edition minimum requirement to have a schemes backing...its a farce. The problem I have is the customers can't differenciate from a fully qualified. 17th edition, 2391, tech cert nvq3 electrician from a 17th edition short course idiot! It boils my blood

 

[Adam W]

NovusSparkus...I mean Adam, yes, I think it is a mis use of the term perhaps.

I have some grandfathers in my garden too, helping support the fence. I (mistakenly) used to call them godfathers. Until I got the mickey taken.

Are you sure you're not thinking of fence posts? They are something different.

 

[Engineer54]

I really think we need to find a way of distinguishing between the 5 week wonder people...

Big difference between someone who's never touched a screwdriver until he did the course, and a person with donkeys years of experience in other trades, or an engineering background, who does the 5 week course as it's the only way in.

It's really not fair to kick off about "domestic installers" like they're a lower form of life.

I'm new to the electrics game, but I can't do a 3 year apprenticeship. I can't afford to, I have a mortgage and bills to pay.

I'm doing a short course (not a £8k one, a "proper" one from a local place), but I'm also working my arse off with the books, I've got an engineering/maths background and have donkeys years of experience with plumbing/plastering/building work and plan to do everything to the very best of my ability and only when I feel confident to do it.

It's quite upsetting to have people talk about me like I'm scum of the earth because I'm not 16 years old and with the luxury of being able to do a full apprenticeship.

Of course there are people out there who are led astray by the bull**** from the "training providers" (give us £10k and you'll be god's gift to the sparky world), but there are also a hell of a lot of us who just want to do domestic work and earn an honest living.

No-ones calling you the scum of the earth, or having a pop at qualified electricians trading under the scheme providers DI label.

What most of the objections here are about, is the 5 to 7 Week wonder boys being labeled as competent by these training providers and the scheme providers (the very people approved by the government to ''Ensure competency'' a complete Joke!!)
There has never been the need or reason for de-skilled Domestic Installer in the electrical industry before, and there is certainly no need for them now. A fully qualified electrician is just that, there shouldn't be any other level, apart from ''Trainee'' or ''Mate'' By choice, a fully qualified electrician should be able to undertake any form of electrical work, in any section of the industry. They may well need a little in-house training or courses, in the industrial environment, on the machines or equipment they will be expected to maintain, but not in their fundamental electrical training...

 

[trev]

It's the system tha'ts at fault not it's victims

 

[nickblake]

When Part P came out out Lab did not have any sparks on there team so they sent 2 joiners on a three week course ,having seen some of there work it was shocking ,maybe they could hang a door well but they certainly were not sparks by a long shot

 

[mickys86]

Was chatting to the person doing the windows and doors the other day and he got on to the subject of how he's a qualified electrician. Took a 6 week course and Passed it. He said he can go test and inspect but he hasn't a clue how he passed nor can he remember how to do any of it. He said two way lighting completely eludes him. But all he needs is some experience. I feel sorry for the ones he practices on

 

[dixon9]

I'm glad you're understanding it UNG, I've been hanging around this forum for quite a while and I'm as confused now as the day I arrived. I honestly don't understand how Part P which as I keep reading is a building regulation of some sort is touted as an electrical qualification.

My interpretation of it, is that it is proof that you have been assessed and confirmed as competent on a domestic level - no more, no less.

You could be qualified, but without Part P there is no "assessment" of what you can actually do. Confirmation of this gives the domestic customer the knowledge that someone has witnessed at least some of your domestic ability and building control the knowledge that they do not have to oversee your work.

At least, that is the intention of it....?

 

[Des 56]

My interpretation of it, is that it is proof that you have been assessed and confirmed as competent on a domestic level - no more, no less.

You could be qualified, but without Part P there is no "assessment" of what you can actually do. Confirmation of this gives the domestic customer the knowledge that someone has witnessed at least some of your domestic ability and building control the knowledge that they do not have to oversee your work.

At least, that is the intention of it....?

But thats one of the major and fundamental flaws of this nonsense part p
An enterprise is assessed,once assessed they can send any one of myriads of numpties to any installation,they may be a danger to themselves and their customers,there is no assessment of the individual

The dangerous qualified supervisor system should never have been considered for domestic work,along with most if not all of the other sections of its insane introduction,I lay the blame for that stupid acceptance solely on the discredited organisation NICEIC

The sooner Part p goes, the more chance this industry has of getting the leeches who infest the industry out of it

 

[dixon9]

Personally I don't there's a right or wrong in all this debate when there are so many DIY'ers, builders, plumbers, etc, etc, doing notifiable work which they don't.

Like it or not a Electrical Trainee is more likely than not to have PL insurance, scheme membership and the knowledge that goes with scheme membership.

So who would you rather have in to do work on your mum's house?

If you don't like it why don't you go off, qualify at night school as an accountant and set up your own business?? or maybe do the same as a brickie. Or as a mechanic and start your own garage??

The biggest issue facing UK plc, is the fact that there are so few opportunities for the young to get a good training and for the more mature the options are even fewer.

Some of the posters here come over as nasty whingers, which, on a public forum does the industry no good at all.

There are good Electricians, bad electricians, good DI's and bad DI's.

I suppose the main sticky points (and with some justification) is that a) is that there is a much higher risk that unsafe or non-compliant work will be carried out by a Electrical Trainee and b) the 5WWs will be taking out a portion of the pie that could have been eaten by those that have had to really earn the title "Electrician".

That said, there is also an element of insecurity that pervades among some. My philiosphy is that the market will eventually sort the problem out (in the meantime, we will have to grin and bear it). IF a Electrical Trainee carries out bad work then he/she will eventually have to go out of business or give up. IF a Electrical Trainee does a good job, then he/she will survive. I can honestly say I that I don't lose any sleep over the matter (and if a homeowner wishes to go on the cheap or doesn't care who carries work out on their house and eventually suffers the consequences, then they got exactly what they paid for).

 

[dixon9]

But thats one of the major and fundamental flaws of this nonsense part p
An enterprise is assessed,once assessed they can send any one of myriads of numpties to any installation,they may be a danger to themselves and their customers,there is no assessment of the individual

The dangerous qualified supervisor system should never have been considered for domestic work,along with most if not all of the other sections of its insane introduction,I lay the blame for that stupid acceptance solely on the discredited organisation NICEIC

The sooner Part p goes, the more chance this industry has of getting the leeches who infest the industry out of it

Well here you are specifically referring to the QS component which is one segment of part p. (I agree with your post though).

 

[djandyryan]

Electricians!! The biggest moaners of what they are getting and what they are not getting!

Trust me i know as i am a time served spark with 16 years under my belt!

In my view, should we not be encouraging new UK blood into the trade and start discouraging foreign people who come here and earn OUR money spend as little of it in OUR country and send the rest home to the family.
Now don't get me wrong guys i'm all for working, family and living, but time and time again i hear sparks moaning about non qualified people or people breaking into the trade, this is only because they are fed up with moaning about the foreigners coming in... to be honest if they were getting the work and times were good they would be happy and busy with no time to worry about it and more time feeling good about helping the dis-advantaged and inexperienced individual.
YES i agree that courses are too easy and are practically bought rather than earned but its our own fault guys. AGAIN....we let it happen and wait for someone else to make some noise about it, but that nobody ever does.
The trouble is with us boys we do not have the balls to stand up and take back what is ours, apprenticeships and proper time served schemes that used to be around 15/20 years ago... its all gone.

Regards Lads

Andy

 

[Engineer54]

They haven't completely gone, there are still some good companies out there, that realise it's in their best interests to train in-house apprentices. We just need a lot more of these companies to see the light, and stop listening to only there accountants!!!

As for the Electrical Trainee boy's, ....Well if all you want to see in a few years time, is ill trained and ill experienced DI's then stay as you are. If you think foreign electricians are a problem now, just wait till they are the Only Fully Qualified Electricians available, because we'll be importing them left right and centre, if we don't get away from this obsession of gearing our electricians training around DI Level!!! lol!!!

 

[gdr7671]

As always the problem lies at the government. We had a work force of fine professional NVQ3 electricians quite happy to wire houses or carry out rewires. Then the government brings in part P. OH! said the cowboy trainers, we can make money out of this. THEY DID AND ARE STILL DOING!! Worse of all the NICEIC, ESC, NAPIT supported the program. Why? To make money!! 5 weeks training, no experience, go and start a business. Just get part p registered. Just to help matters let in over 1 million eastern europeans and let them loose. Simply will matters get better for us? Not a chance. It can't unless you bring in compulsory JIB gold card as a minimum to work on ANY installation and blow part P out altogether. I worked my way from the old A course to HNC, done a 5 year apprenticeship and all and i cannot add a circuit to my house because i am not part p registered. Laugh? no i could cry at what politicians have done to my profession. I am leaving it, it isn't worth the headaches anymore. We lost out big style to the under-qualified, training companies and the enforcers of part P, NICEIC, ELECSA,NAPIT etc. I wish all my fellow professionals the best in a very uncertain future

 

[highspark]

If we all stuck together we can make things happen. We all agree that an approved JIB card is the way to go. I'm working towards it. I've got the 17th, 2391 and 2330 I'm currently doing NVQ3. Once thats done I'll be fully quailified and I can finally rest!

 

[johnboy6083]

If we all stuck together we can make things happen. We all agree that an approved JIB card is the way to go. I'm working towards it. I've got the 17th, 2391 and 2330 I'm currently doing NVQ3. Once thats done I'll be fully quailified and I can finally rest!

No rest for the wicked mate. in a few years there will be a new regs course, a 3 week course to be able to carry out 1st fix, and an additional 1 to do 2nd fix. dont forget the non electrical courses like IPAF, safety passport, confined spaces ect.

 

[Dave 85]

The problem is, a lot of you guys fail to see the bigger picture. All you see is that someone can do a 5 week course and effectively be allowed to run a company carrying out potential dangerous work that traditionally would have been done by people with 5 yrs training and experience. This in its self is a bit F'ked up, no doubt. Proper electricians are losing work to these people and they're angry, sure.

And here the big picture

The government doesn't give two shiny ****'s if poor old Colin whos been a sparky for 50 yrs is now making 25k a year not 40k, or if some new electrical installations haven't been done quite right, or even if the odd house burns down because of it.
Thats not their job.
The government in, lets say, 2004, had on the one hand, a load of unemployed people, and on the other an electrical trade that didn't have enough men to keep up with demand, and why? because it takes 5 frikin years of grafting you're nuts off and earning F' all to become a sparky. Most young people just went to uni instead, at least they could get ****ed all day. So the government intoduces a way of A: regulating the domestic electrical trade and B: making it a lot easier for adults to retrain as electricians, therefore boosting the economy and creating jobs.

Im not saying they got it right. 5 weeks training and no experience is a recipe for disaster, and yes it would be better for me also if these 5 week courses didn't exist (marginally). Im just saying the government have more to think about than power factor correction and the workings of a three phase motor. Not that I dont think labour were a bunch of incompetent hypocrytical commies, cos I do.

For the record
Im not a Electrical Trainee