Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

[highspark]

How can we put an end to this drivel? Why is there people out there unqualified and inexperienced bluffing their way into work. Taking work from fully qualified time served lads?Theres a couple in my area. Driving round in vans with schemes tatooed all over them. They look the biz - the outfit. But I know they are not electricians. They are chancers bluffing their way through. The 17th Edition minimum requirement to have a schemes backing...its a farce. The problem I have is the customers can't differenciate from a fully qualified. 17th edition, 2391, tech cert nvq3 electrician from a 17th edition short course idiot! It boils my blood

 

[thw1965]

Well Ive read this thread and I`d like to make a few points. Ive been a sparks for about 15 years now, all the usual qualifications plus 2391 and a few bolt ons like 5839 qualifications. Ive run my own business for 10 years now and Ive come across all sorts of "electricians".
Ive taken on guys on apprenticeships who after 2 years of college are completely hopeless. The colleges, at least the two around here, are so focused on teaching them how to thread conduit and terminate MIMS so they can pass Booth tests that the basic principles of electricity theory are completely missed. The training in colleges who think they are the proper way is hopeless.

These fast courses have their problems, however they do have a place. I have recently advised a young lad who is doing the odd day here and there with us to get some hands on experience that he would be better off ditching college and doing one of these courses and getting some experience with us.

This idea that the only way is apprenticeships is out dated clap trap. Ive worked with good sparks who have taken both routes, and bad ones too. Your only as good as the person who trained you on site. I would happily give, and have given, a chance to fast course guys because they had the balls to go out and do it. They are often better in the long run, trust me.

This crap about JIB cards, 2330, which is **** easy by the way is ancient history. If they go out and set up on day 1 after a course without experience then so be it, its called competition. I built my business by charging reasonable prices during the good times which is why we are expanding during this recession when so many others are shrinking. I loose little or no business to these wonder guys because I have the reputation to withstand the competition and any builder worth his salt knows who to employ, if hes a cowboy I wouldnt be working with him anyway.

Give them a chance and they will as often as not prove every bit as good as us "time served sparks"

 

[Dave 85]

Well Ive read this thread and I`d like to make a few points. Ive been a sparks for about 15 years now, all the usual qualifications plus 2391 and a few bolt ons like 5839 qualifications. Ive run my own business for 10 years now and Ive come across all sorts of "electricians".
Ive taken on guys on apprenticeships who after 2 years of college are completely hopeless. The colleges, at least the two around here, are so focused on teaching them how to thread conduit and terminate MIMS so they can pass Booth tests that the basic principles of electricity theory are completely missed. The training in colleges who think they are the proper way is hopeless.

These fast courses have their problems, however they do have a place. I have recently advised a young lad who is doing the odd day here and there with us to get some hands on experience that he would be better off ditching college and doing one of these courses and getting some experience with us.

This idea that the only way is apprenticeships is out dated clap trap. Ive worked with good sparks who have taken both routes, and bad ones too. Your only as good as the person who trained you on site. I would happily give, and have given, a chance to fast course guys because they had the balls to go out and do it. They are often better in the long run, trust me.

This crap about JIB cards, 2330, which is **** easy by the way is ancient history. If they go out and set up on day 1 after a course without experience then so be it, its called competition. I built my business by charging reasonable prices during the good times which is why we are expanding during this recession when so many others are shrinking. I loose little or no business to these wonder guys because I have the reputation to withstand the competition and any builder worth his salt knows who to employ, if hes a cowboy I wouldnt be working with him anyway.

Give them a chance and they will as often as not prove every bit as good as us "time served sparks"

Absolutely bang on! I completely agree with all of the above. Couldn't have put it better myself.

I did 2330 to lev 3 and looking back I'd probably have got more relevant training from a 5 week course. We spent months trawling through power factor correction and 3 phase motors (my pet hates) all of which I had no problem grasping but some of the other lads did. Its all bull, irrelevant, I'm only interested in domestic and light commercial, I have no desire to design factories for a living. And testing, testing. We were made to repeat the same bloody tests twice a week for 2 years. They taught us very little about how to fill out a cert or find an RCD fault, just ring cont over and over.
I learnt nothing about how to chop in a backbox lift floorboards, wire a lighting circuit in an actual house or even do a JB.

Luckily for me I was working as a mate, for a mate, for reasonable money the whole time so it wasn't a problem. A lot of the lads doing the course were still doing office jobs and wanted to go straight into running an electrical firm afterwards. I felt sorry for them, after 3 years they would be less use on a job IMO than a bloke whos helped out a sparky for a month, with no quals. Most of the unexperienced guys would have been far better off on a 5 weeker, but they wanted to do it 'properly'.

Suffice to say quite a few went back to their office jobs 3k poorer having lost 2 nights a week for 3 and a half yrs and with no hope of ever becoming an electrician.

 

[alarm man]

I would happily give, and have given, a chance to fast course guys because they had the balls to go out and do it. They are often better in the long run, trust me.

they wont be better,trust me,just cheaper

 

[Engineer54]

This idea that the only way is apprenticeships is out dated clap trap. Ive worked with good sparks who have taken both routes, and bad ones too. Your only as good as the person who trained you on site. I would happily give, and have given, a chance to fast course guys because they had the balls to go out and do it. They are often better in the long run, trust me.

I wouldn't and don't believe that for a second!! The only clap trap here, is what you have posted above. ....And that is, ...absolute Crap Trap!!!

 

[thw1965]

they wont be better,trust me,just cheaper

I disagree. Experience has proven me right I`m afraid. Dave85 has it in a nutshell. This elitist rubbish that people who went through an apprenticeship, and Im one, are somehow a better class of sparky than a Electrical Trainee is just bile. Its all about experience. No experience is no experience it doesnt matter which route you take to the end result. If your useless your useless. The best sparky I work with (he`s self employed) was a builder before he went on a fast course, and trust me he`s damn good. Incidentally I pay on results not qualifications which is why a young lad who is only partially qualified is earning more than a 28 year old who did a modern apprenticeship. Hes better.

My point is its all about experience, the willingness to work hard and the ability to learn quickly whichever route you take

 

[Current Affairs]

Well Ive read this thread and I`d like to make a few points. Ive been a sparks for about 15 years now, all the usual qualifications plus 2391 and a few bolt ons like 5839 qualifications. Ive run my own business for 10 years now and Ive come across all sorts of "electricians".
Ive taken on guys on apprenticeships who after 2 years of college are completely hopeless. The colleges, at least the two around here, are so focused on teaching them how to thread conduit and terminate MIMS so they can pass Booth tests that the basic principles of electricity theory are completely missed. The training in colleges who think they are the proper way is hopeless.

These fast courses have their problems, however they do have a place. I have recently advised a young lad who is doing the odd day here and there with us to get some hands on experience that he would be better off ditching college and doing one of these courses and getting some experience with us.

This idea that the only way is apprenticeships is out dated clap trap. Ive worked with good sparks who have taken both routes, and bad ones too. Your only as good as the person who trained you on site. I would happily give, and have given, a chance to fast course guys because they had the balls to go out and do it. They are often better in the long run, trust me.

This crap about JIB cards, 2330, which is **** easy by the way is ancient history. If they go out and set up on day 1 after a course without experience then so be it, its called competition. I built my business by charging reasonable prices during the good times which is why we are expanding during this recession when so many others are shrinking. I loose little or no business to these wonder guys because I have the reputation to withstand the competition and any builder worth his salt knows who to employ, if hes a cowboy I wouldnt be working with him anyway.

Give them a chance and they will as often as not prove every bit as good as us "time served sparks"

Agree with your points. Have never understood the 4 years apprenticeships, they are just cheap labour, there is no way it takes 4 years to train a competant electrician. Time served does not replace qualifications and qualifications do not replace experience, it has to be a mixture of both. A time served electrician killed a women in my area after he signed off the inspection & test on the property and was not qualified to do so and had not actually completed a full inspection & test prior to switching the power back on.


Its all irrelevant though as no one in even in this day and age has to be qualified to complete Electrical work. Why its acceptable for anyone to be able to buy the kit from DIY stores, the Government will never stop unqualified people from completing the work

 

[Dave 85]

Elitist...thats the word I've been racking my brains for, I kept wanting to say facist but though it a bit stong.

 

[highspark]

Absolutely bang on! I completely agree with all of the above. Couldn't have put it better myself.I did 2330 to lev 3 and looking back I'd probably have got more relevant training from a 5 week course. We spent months trawling through power factor correction and 3 phase motors (my pet hates) all of which I had no problem grasping but some of the other lads did. Its all bull****, irrelevant, I'm only interested in domestic and light commercial, I have no desire to design factories for a living. And testing, f*king testing. We were made to repeat the same bloody tests twice a week for 2 years. They taught us very little about how to fill out a cert or find an RCD fault, just ring cont over and over. I learnt nothing about how to chop in a backbox lift floorboards, wire a lighting circuit in an actual house or even do a JB.Luckily for me I was working as a mate, for a mate, for reasonable money the whole time so it wasn't a problem. A lot of the lads doing the course were still doing office jobs and wanted to go straight into running an electrical firm afterwards. I felt sorry for them, after 3 years they would be less use on a job IMO than a bloke whos helped out a sparky for a month, with no quals. Most of the unexperienced guys would have been far better off on a 5 weeker, but they wanted to do it 'properly'. Suffice to say quite a few went back to their office jobs 3k poorer having lost 2 nights a week for 3 and a half yrs and with no hope of ever becoming an electrician.

You have actually hit the nail on the head in your own post!!!! The 2330 didn't teach you how to lift boards etc etc.... because it isn't meant to your meant to do that on the job thats why the two go together hand in hand. Some of the crap posted above is definately from 5 week wonders pretending to be real sparks. The 2330 level 3 certainly isn't as easy as people make out. It has a high pass rate because colleges hold peoples hands over the line. Probably less so than these training providers with the EASIER quals. The same storys come out about the lads who spent 3k and went back to their old job...what a load of made up crap!

 

[trev]

So this has turned into claims that someone with 5 weeks of training with no practical on site supervised experience can equal someone with at least 4 years in depth theory training with lots of supervised site work?
I agree that there are a lot of rubbish time served guys out there but I'd rather take a time served guy than a Electrical Trainee any day of the week.

 

[trev]

Agree with your points. Have never understood the 4 years apprenticeships, they are just cheap labour, there is no way it takes 4 years to train a competant electrician. Time served does not replace qualifications and qualifications do not replace experience, it has to be a mixture of both.

I'm sorry but what total and utter nonsense. Time served does equal qualifications and experience, that's the whole point of a recognised apprenticeship. It takes that amount of time so that a new starter can be taught every aspect of the trade and as far as it being cheap labour, are you proposing that a lad semi trained should be paid the same as a 40 odd year old guy with 20+ years experience?
Yes people have been killed by time served guys but by the same token buildings designed by architects with years of experience and built by massive companys employing skilled tradesmen have collapsed and killed people.

 

[thw1965]

You have actually hit the nail on the head in your own post!!!! The 2330 didn't teach you how to lift boards etc etc.... because it isn't meant to your meant to do that on the job thats why the two go together hand in hand. Some of the crap posted above is definately from 5 week wonders pretending to be real sparks. The 2330 level 3 certainly isn't as easy as people make out. It has a high pass rate because colleges hold peoples hands over the line. Probably less so than these training providers with the EASIER quals. The same storys come out about the lads who spent 3k and went back to their old job...what a load of made up crap!

Well if your suggesting that I`m a pretending to be an electrician your a long way off the mark Im afraid. if i was that precious Im sure I`d be on a forum for rocket Scientists or Brain surgeons not sparkies. 2330 was easy as pie, 2391 was a bit harder but lets face it most sparks qualifications are not very hard, thats not the point of them. a 5 week wonder comes out knowing more about Ohms law, cable selection, voltage drop, testing etc than a guy who`s done 2 years at our local colleges. Now if he can back that up with some onsite experience then he`ll be just as good in most environments. I will concede that the endless conduit bending in colleges has its place but its all to no avail if you dont know what size cable to put in it.

The point is the training in the colleges is letting lads down. My own preference would be a one year course based on say 25 weeks in 5 modules in the classroom interspersed with 25 weeks hands on. One year to train a sparky to an acceptable standard that he is not going to kill himself or others. Lets face it it only takes 2 years to train an airline pilot. Scrap the 5 week courses and colleges and do it that way, everyone then has a shot

 

[alarm man]

Agree with your points. Have never understood the 4 years apprenticeships, they are just cheap labour, there is no way it takes 4 years to train a competant electrician.

did the Electrical Trainee tutor tell you that,just before you handed over your money.

 

[alarm man]

Lets face it it only takes 2 years to train an airline pilot.

airline pilots arnt clever,they just look cool as in that uniform,flying a plane cant be that hard,computers fly it most of the time,it tells you your too high too low too fast too slow,its just a big car with wings..pah

 

[thw1965]

So this has turned into claims that someone with 5 weeks of training with no practical on site supervised experience can equal someone with at least 4 years in depth theory training with lots of supervised site work?
I agree that there are a lot of rubbish time served guys out there but I'd rather take a time served guy than a Electrical Trainee any day of the week.

"in depth theory" at colleges, your having a laugh. I have to teach our guys how to do it properly and more importantly what they are testing for and fully to understand the relationship between the various different readings. My point is and always has been that a four year apprenticeship is not the be all and end all. Give these Electrical Trainee a bit of experience and they will be competent electricians. Dont be so elitist and snobbish about it, if you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen

 

[Engineer54]

So this has turned into claims that someone with 5 weeks of training with no practical on site supervised experience can equal someone with at least 4 years in depth theory training with lots of supervised site work?
I agree that there are a lot of rubbish time served guys out there but I'd rather take a time served guy than a Electrical Trainee any day of the week.

Trouble is, all these guy's are talking about, is house bashing electricians or the modern posh term Domestic Installers. These guy's are actually basing an electricians skill on Domestic work, ....and they often can't even get that right at times!!!! They seem to conveniently forget that an electrician should be able to work in ANY sector of our industry.
I'd love to see a Electrical Trainee DI, even after 5 years experience try and hold down an electricians position as an industrial maintenance electrician...

Unfortunately, it seems these DI's have taken over the bulk of an electricians training these days, all you seem to be taught these day's, is just enough to get on to a scheme providers register!! God help the UK's Electrical Industry.