Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

[highspark]

How can we put an end to this drivel? Why is there people out there unqualified and inexperienced bluffing their way into work. Taking work from fully qualified time served lads?Theres a couple in my area. Driving round in vans with schemes tatooed all over them. They look the biz - the outfit. But I know they are not electricians. They are chancers bluffing their way through. The 17th Edition minimum requirement to have a schemes backing...its a farce. The problem I have is the customers can't differenciate from a fully qualified. 17th edition, 2391, tech cert nvq3 electrician from a 17th edition short course idiot! It boils my blood

 

[DNS1]

not the sharpest knife in the drawer are you

Personally, from what I've read, Dave 85 is a hell of a lot "sharper" than many on here!

 

[UNG]

I think we need a middle ground between "electrician" and "domestic installer". As people have said, the former implies industrial/commercial work but the later implies only very basic domestic work.

I don't see that "Electrician" implies only industrial / commercial work it covers all types of "electrical installation work" the JIB have a grading scheme that has "Electrical Improver", "Electrician", "Approved Electrician" and "Technician" each grade has it's own requirements with regard to training and experience as you don't like the term "domestic installer" which is a product of Part P and the scheme providers where do you see the middle ground as I don't think "Electrical Improver" would cut it for you but even that grade requires that you have completed the 2330 course but not yet passed the exams

Domestic Installer isn't a very nice way of describing someone who is qualified to inspect, test and fault find on installations.

Without resorting to clichés I don't see you can dress something up to be something it isn't

I think everyones missing the point a bit here. Training is just one of several factors that make a decent electrician.
For an industrial/maintenance electrician training is a crucial factor but this is irrelevant because no company would take on a Electrical Trainee for this type of work.

I don't think everyone is missing the point, there are numerous things that go into the pot to turn out a good electrician, I would say training is more crucial for the guy doing domestic work as they are generally working on their own unsupervised while in the industrial / commercial sector there is usually more supervision and installation work is often tested by some one else and not the installer

This thread is about self employed domestic electricians right.

I thought it was about qualifications thread title is Unqualified, inexperienced badged "electricians"

Firstly the debate about who's an 'electrician' and whos not....
Who cares, as far as the paying clients are concerend everybodys an electrician, the term has no clear definition anymore.
The factors that make a good domestic electrician/DI/DIYer/Electrical cable runner whatever we're calling them nowadays are:
Experience
Intelligence
Training
Knowledge
Drive
Personality

In roughly that order IMO

Who cares, have you not noticed how many pages this thread has

As far as the paying customers are concerned you are right everybody IS an electrician including the kitchen fitter, gas fitter, joiner and uncle Tom Cobbly and all. The electrician is fast becoming the lowest of the low as anybody can do it to very differing standards and the downward trend in hourly rates are reflecting this

One important factor I think you have missed is knowing and understanding your limits with regard to experience, training and knowledge

Now
Someone who knows nothing about physics/maths elctricity who has never worked in the building trade...
If they do a 5 week course, no, they are not going to be an even remotely competent electrician.
But exactly the same can be said of the same person doing 2330
Either way it doesn't matter, neither is going to be able to go out and start doing serious electrical work simply because they won't have a clue where to start, and if they do they arn't gonna get a very good rep when any other trade sees them trying to work out how to get a floorboard up.

On the other hand
If you had someone who's been an electricians mate for 3 years, or even a builder/plumber or experienced DIYer etc with a bit of intelligence and knowledge of physics, then IMO they will probably be able to do a 5 week course and come out as a reasonably competent domestic electrician.

The 5 week course along with imported labour was just a method to massage the previous governments statistics by showing a reduction in the skills shortage that they widely promoted but did it exist and is much the same as the Skill Centre sparks in the 80's but they could actually do the industrial and commercial stuff even if they were a bit lacking in some areas. If / when there is an upturn in the industrial / commercial sectors will some of these 5 week course specialists expect to move over because they are "electricians"

A lot of you guys like to pretend that the variable of intelligence doesn't exist.

If it didn't everyone would be leaving school would with all A* grades in their exams are you suggesting the electrical industry lowers the bar while everyone else is pushing theirs up as exam grades improve

Some 19 yr old kid who isn't too sharp, doesnt really care about his career but manages to scrape through a full electrical apprenticeship may well be completely useless as a self employed domestic electrician because although he has the factors of training and experience, he lacks intelligence, knowledge drive and personality.

And Im starting to wonder if a lot of you guys going on about the 2330 have actually done it because I have and apart from testing, inspection and current capacity its largely irrelevant to a domestic electrician.

I dont know what they teach on these 5 week courses and it does seem quite short but I am fairly confident that If I had done it instead of 2330 it would make virtually no difference to the standard of the work I am carrying out.

A lot of the lads that were apprentices when I started had no intention of going self employed and haven't preferring the 8 - 4:30 5 days a week with occasional overtime and leave somebody else with the headache of finding work but then again a few of them jibbed it before completing the apprenticeship then again some have left the industry having completing it

You are right I haven't got a 2330 but does a C&G 236 A, B & C cert count. If the 2330 is largely irrelevant for the domestic spark then I would suggest that C&G would not miss an opportunity to tailor a course to fill the gap you suggest is there

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, whether the 5 week course would have been sufficient for your needs would be difficult to quantify now you have a higher qualification and without thinking you will draw on knowledge gained from it

 

[Roskelly]

Thanks to Dave85 for summing up my thoughts as I read this post. As it happens, I am one of your Electrical Trainee. Yes- send me to the docks etc etc.. but dave 85 was, I think making a valid point. Guys with a half ounce of common sense, practical ability and determination to do well and be proud of the work they carry out shouldn't be excluded from working as a domestic installer. (Don't get me wrong, I am not saying there aren't cowboys who should be outed) For me, I wasn't able to put my life on hold to complete the four year 2330 etc with rent and bills to pay. However, I had worked as an electricians apprentice for 2 years after finishing my A levels - well on my way to becoming a 'proper electrician' before the company folded and I was out of work. I couldnt find work as a part trained electrician so worked as a builder, farmer, bank clerk for four years before I found out about the Electrical Trainee course. In short, it meant that, with a lot of reading, revising, building circuits in my garage, I was able to pass and become qualified as a domestic installer in two months or so. I have since left my sales job and am now self employed and actually look forward to going to work (cue music from lassie or something!) The point I am trying to make is this. While I agree that yes it must be frustrating for time served electricians to see guys like us taking work away from them I am no cowboy. Partly because I have worked as a mate and (I think) have the common sense and conscience to carry out work safely and to the standard of any time served electrician. I am not as fast as a 'proper' electrician but only because I want to make sure I do the job right. I quote for the customer so I do not take the p*** on an hourly rate. For every job I plan, do the math, consult the regs and test to finish. I am registered with elecsa and welcome random site visits. All work that is notifiable is submited and the customer retains copys of the certificates. I am covered with insurance and the customer is aware I can be contacted 24hours a day if there is a problem. I do not call myself an electrician, but state I am a Domestic installer. I make it clear I do not work in commercial or industrial premises ( I leave that to the guys who have experience in these fields) While I totally respect you fully experienced electricians, I felt my time at college whilst working as an apprentice was a waste of time. I know the correct way to wear a hard hat, I know not to ride the the bucket of a digger on a building site etc... the other guys were more interested in smoke breaks, or how many times they had been electrocuted. A year of that really could be condensed into a few solid weeks.

 

[Guest112]

/\ you have no real understanding of an apprenticeship at all your the same as all the Electrical Trainee you want to be a "spark" but dont want to put any real effort into becoming a real one,

and people wonder why the skill is slowly declining from our trade :banghead:

 

[Roskelly]

Not the case at all. I said I respect you all but why do we all have to be put in the same box. Im no cowboy. If you wish to pay me an hourly rate enough to pay my bills and rent to be your apprentice I would gladly. I didnt mean to come across as self rightous or disrespectful.

 

[Octopus]

Isn't the underlying problem in the UK as a whole:

1. The lack of extended training schemes for school leavers
2. The lack of extended training schemes for people wishing to retrain
3. The "acceptance" into schemes of people who have fast tracked
4. Training as a whole

And these comments aren't just aimed at sparkies/DI's etc

Said it before and I'll say it again, there are far more people around doing dodgy electrics than DI's, and I can't see this changing in the near future.

 

[Engineer54]

Isn't the underlying problem in the UK as a whole:

1. The lack of extended training schemes for school leavers
2. The lack of extended training schemes for people wishing to retrain
3. The "acceptance" into schemes of people who have fast tracked
4. Training as a whole

And these comments aren't just aimed at sparky's/DI's etc

Said it before and I'll say it again, there are far more people around doing dodgy electrics thanDI's, and I can't see this changing in the near future.

And why things won't change, not when you have these Electrical Trainee boy's being trained in less than basic qualifications and then being excepted into these Part Pee schemes as competent persons (which is a complete scam on it's own) which they are most certainly NOT!!

We need a minimal standard level for all electricians, whether they intend to work only in domestic sectors or not. ....What we don't need is a new designation of Domestic Installer!! All should hold Nationally recognised minimal qualifications, which should Always include a Core qualification and an NVQ of a suitable level.

Under no circumstances should National minimum qualification levels be set or allowed to be side stepped by the Scheme Providers, they have done more than enough damage to this industry already!!!

 

[highspark]

I'll step in here with a little bit more on the topic of an "Electrician" a "Domestic Electrician" and a "Domestic Installer/Chancer" and heres my definitions.........................................An "Electrician" is somebody who has the relevant qualifications and experiance in all aspects of the electrical induistry. Their Qualifications are likely to be as follows 17th Edition, 2391, 2330/2360 AM2 & NVQ3 all of these courses where completed at a college of a number of years..............................................."A Domestic Electrician" is somebody who has the relevant qualifiactions and experience in the domestic sector. Their qualifications will usually consist of 17th Edition, 2391, 2330/2360 and maybe the AM2 and NVQ3. All of their qualifications where gained in a college over a number of years whilst they shadowed other fully qualified "Domestic Electricians"........................................and now we come to the "Domestic Installer/Chancer" He is somebody who has enrolled on a "GET IT QUICK" COURSE. His qualifications consist of the 17th Edition, 2392 and the EAL Domestic Installers course. If he's lucky he may have scraped through the 2391 or even better have the NAPIT 2391NA. He hasn't any on site experience other than in his bay at train4skills. Hes a good bluffer and spends his time in pubs on Friday nights telling everyone how hes a fully qualified electrician and how much work he has on. He has all the latest tools and equipment, along with the correct uniform to bluff his way through. He looks like he knows what he is doing.........................He can put a ring final together, do a few lighting circuits put a shower and cooker circuit in. However he CAN'T fault find, nor can he test properly. He just bluffs his way through the sheets. He tells the customer the whole circuit needs to be renewed because he hasn't a clue where to find the fault. The measure of a fully qualified electrician is his fault finding capabilities and that what puts someone apart from another. Don't get me wrong there is great installers and its a cracking skill to have but fault finding measures the spark IMO

 

[DNS1]

He can put a ring final together, do a few lighting circuits put a shower and cooker circuit in. However he CAN'T fault find, nor can he test properly. He just bluffs his way through the sheets. He tells the customer the whole circuit needs to be renewed because he hasn't a clue where to find the fault. The measure of a fully qualified electrician is his fault finding capabilities and that what puts someone apart from another. Don't get me wrong there is great installers and its a cracking skill to have but fault finding measures the spark IMO

Sorry, but this is a very unfair generalisation.

There are many of us out there (and a hell of a lot on this forum) who don't hold the 2330 and who haven't been able to do apprenticeships who are perfectly capable of fault finding etc.

 

[highspark]

The 2330 has nothing to do with it!, even though it is the foundations of a real electrician. Why does it keep getting mentioned though? Its not the lack of the 2330 that is concerning me. Its the lack of experience. Most have none at all, yet they are in people homes bluffing in their shiny new van and work boots. They are nothing but conmen.........................................99.9% OF DOMESTIC INSTALLER CAN'T FAULT FIND OR TEST competently thats my opinion and I'm yet to be proved wrong!

 

[Engineer54]

Sorry, but this is a very unfair generalisation.

There are many of us out there (and a hell of a lot on this forum) who don't hold the 2330 and who haven't been able to do apprenticeships who are perfectly capable of fault finding etc.

Maybe, maybe not, ....But it's generally the ones with the Core qualifications that correctly answer the vast majority of the basic questions, asked by mostly those that Don't have those Core qualifications!! ...Funny, those with the core qualifications tend to have the most site based experience too. Maybe that should be telling you something!!! lol!!!

 

[Octopus]

And why things won't change, not when you have these Electrical Trainee boy's being trained in less than basic qualifications and then being excepted into these Part Pee schemes as competent persons (which is a complete scam on it's own) which they are most certainly NOT!!

We need a minimal standard level for all electricians, whether they intend to work only in domestic sectors or not. ....What we don't need is a new designation of Domestic Installer!! All should hold Nationally recognised minimal qualifications, which should Always include a Core qualification and an NVQ of a suitable level.

Under no circumstances should National minimum qualification levels be set or allowed to be side stepped by the Scheme Providers, they have done more than enough damage to this industry already!!!

I have to say I disagree as you seem to be oblivious to the fact that tom, dick and harry from every trade is damaging the trade as a whole.

Sure some of the fast entry schemes should be taken to court for mis selling but don't tar everyone with the same brush.

I know guys round my way, time served, 30+ years, who do cash, no certs, no notification, etc, etc, day in day out - are they the shining example of an "electrician" you seem to be speaking for?

 

[highspark]

Worked with one last week, 62 years old, bin at it since 16, Notches joists, doesn't even think twice about ip ratings around the board, I done a calc for a shower feed and had it at 6mm he argued "it's got to be 10mm it's a shower" Didn't know how to do a continuity of ring final, didn't know how to do a Ze reading, just a nightmare yet me at the age of 24 is down the pecking order from this guy to the consumers as "he is older, more experience" and I have my 17th, 2392, 2391, 2330L3, part p approved, good fault finder etc, so it's swings and round abouts.

Whats wrong with notching joists?..................................................Just looking through your posts and you're either a fibber/chancer or your college has passed you out before June which they don't do..... You say you have just enrolled on the 2330 (that was september 2011) and you have until June (the time all colleges sit your final exam) to get the 2330. So you don't have the 2330 yet??? or do you?

 

[ipf]

And why things won't change, not when you have these Electrical Trainee boy's being trained in less than basic qualifications and then being excepted into these Part Pee schemes as competent persons (which is a complete scam on it's own) which they are most certainly NOT!!

We need a minimal standard level for all electricians, whether they intend to work only in domestic sectors or not. ....What we don't need is a new designation of Domestic Installer!! All should hold Nationally recognised minimal qualifications, which should Always include a Core qualification and an NVQ of a suitable level.

Under no circumstances should National minimum qualification levels be set or allowed to be side stepped by the Scheme Providers, they have done more than enough damage to this industry already!!!

A,B,C...... simple, then HNC. Each was a standard in it's own right and we were graded accordingly. Why do we have to make something so simple so complicated? Same as occurred with 'O' levels and GCSE's. Bring in a new system and make it easier to obtain qualifications. The big difference is in this game it's not just pupils sat at desks. At least it didn't used to be.......?

 

[Guest112]

maybe dan should make a domestic-installersforums.co.uk lol would definately make coming on here more appealing. would save listening to all these pretend electricians bluffing their way through life same old same old i cant get an apprenticesip...

when i got my apprenticeship i rang EVERY number in the book and didnt stop when i couldnt get one i did a pre apprenticeship course for a year and tried again rang EVERY number in the book AGAIN.

got my foot in the door to sit aptitude tests and pass medicals and finally get to the interview and found out over 1200 people applied for the position i was offered and one other.

here i am now ive got the 2330, 17th, done nvq 2 and 3, Am2, 2391 and im not stopping there

my question is how bad do you want it? people are too spoilt these days no patience they want everything now and wont just simply just do the core qualifications as far as you can without a work placement then gain experience as a mate or a labourer if need be get your foot in the door get your work placement finish 2330 do nvq 3 then keep going!!! its not hard is it just put some effort into it for gods sake all you DIs need to pull your thumb out. I though part p was introduced for plumbers to put spurs in and for chippys to moke sockets! not for chancers basing a career out of it, it's unbelievable it is absolutely shocking the stuff that comes out of their mouths and the work they produce. when i refuse jobs on the side i always say to the person make sure you dont ring a DI ring a real electrician and then i explain the difference and 9/10 they are surprised and shocked about the difference and the situation lol