EU Brexit - How will you vote given the latest "news"

[Octopus]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Saw this the other night, young looking 16yr old girl stuns the benched IN campaigners by making an obvious point which seems to somehow allude them; until now.

[video=youtube;SPy8lW85EWU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPy8lW85EWU[/video]

Remarkable for a 16 year old. Very articulate and nobody on the panel seemed to have a decent answer!

 

[sean_ork]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Good to hear we'll not have to be waiting ages for a cuppa, but ......

Tories want to quit EU to 'scrap workers' right to paid holiday' | UK Politics | News | The Independent

 

[Octopus]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Good to hear we'll not have to be waiting ages for a cuppa, but ......

Tories want to quit EU to 'scrap workers' right to paid holiday' | UK Politics | News | The Independent

from the link above

"Angela Eagle warned that EU-backed principles like paid holidays and equal pay were “on the ballot paper” in the In-Out referendum on 23 June.

Angela Eagle warned that EU-backed principles like paid holidays and equal pay were “on the ballot paper” in the In-Out referendum on 23 June.

Ms Eagle warned that many Conservatives who wanted to leave the bloc wanted to scrap the rights and said Labour voters would be key to the Remain vote."

and her evidence is?

 

[sean_ork]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

and her evidence is?

Mr Fiction asks for evidence :wink_smile:

 

[andyb]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Saw this the other night, young looking 16yr old girl stuns the benched IN campaigners by making an obvious point which seems to somehow allude them; until now.

[video=youtube;SPy8lW85EWU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SPy8lW85EWU[/video]

Help me out here Darkwood, what point did she make that has alluded people untill now?
She said nothing that I've not heard before and will surely hear over and over untill the referendum.

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Help me out here Darkwood, what point did she make that has alluded people untill now?
She said nothing that I've not heard before and will surely hear over and over untill the referendum.

Alluded or refused to acknowledge is the same thing here, its one of many problems caused by EU regulations, been forced to accept any EU citizen and allow them to work without question has forced a situation where we have had to stem the flow elsewhere, this in effect has effected many of our services now finding themselves struggling to source the correct skills, its funny how when we joined the EU it was for a trade agreement only and little more but 40yrs down the line we now have surrended most of our laws and rights most of which would enable us to protect our own and our services, we now have the meddling Brussels using us as a cash cow and a open door job centre while turning a blind eye to the problems it is causing. The NHS is been raped of money which we the tax payer pay to use leaving us with lack of treatment, cutbacks and long waiting lists while we are supposed to be able to claim back the monies from any EU citizens country of origin yet you may want to find out how much of the money the NHS are owed from our member countries actually gets payed back to us - little if any, we are just been abused in every direction and there are those out there that refuse to acknowledge it or are just ignorant to it.
So many of the issues and problems blamed on who ever is in government stems from the deeper truth in that they have no powers to do anything about it but that doesn't reflect well to the electorate when your running an IN campaign.

 

[Midwest]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

This is scarremongering :-

It is better/stronger for us to be in than out - As a nation we were stronger before joining the EU, our powers to govern our own laws have been eroded, our say who we trade with has had limitations forced on us, our ability to control our own borders is no longer ours, considering the only time we were not part of the EU we were a stronger self governing nation, how can it be said it is now better to stay in when recent history favours us been on our own.

We are stronger in Europe!- Like I just mentioned, this is a misleading campaign header as we are part of Europe whether we vote in or out, its sole aim is to confuse the electorate in their favour.

A leap into the darkness- Again putting negative spin on it making it sound like we are effectively jumping off a cliff, nothing will change immediately and laws and trading agreements will be phased in over an estimated 2 yr period, no we won't stop trading, we will carry on as normal and we have a better hand to do a trade deal with as we then are open to free trade to the rest of the world so the EU would have to compete for our trade where as now we are forced to close trade and limited world trade.

France would remove its UK border line in Calais- So what we have to deal with the 3000 or 6000 depending on your source but the UK can effectively stop 300000 immgrant from the EU on day one (although it would be phased in), I think with the 55million per day we save I don't see a problem to dealing with 6000 illegal immigrants.

The points I make are factual, we are restricted from trading with the world, we have no control over many of our laws or our border, steps are quite far on now and would see Turkey given Visa free access to travel to the EU within years(You can check this out), yes this isn't a full member status but its basically the same regarding the effects that adding 80million people from a poorer nation will have, part speculation yes but partly we have seen what happens when poorer nations join so I have the evidence weighing in my favour. When immigrants settle in a country they are normally given EU citizenship within 2 yrs this effectively means all these economical migrants among the refugees would be free to then come to England, claims that Germany is vetting people and sending those home who are not refugee's is easy to say but almost impossible to enact as you cannot prove without doubt where someone has come from especially as they have no papers on them.

To say its risky to leave the EU is founded on little but speculation because we haven't been witness to this ever happening, more so it would be correct to say its riskier to remain in the EU as there is 40+ yrs of evidence of the effects this has had on the UK

So I put it back to you that I am giving a personal opinion based on hard facts where as the IN campaign is all speculation,thus any negative headlining about leaving is speculation thus scaremongering.

The BBC are biased as they rarely reports on EU meetings and world leaders intervention on this subject but in the past week they are grabbing every story they find with a few minutes coverage on each to prop up the IN campaign while only showing sound bites of the OUT campaign.

If we left the only losers are the big corporates, the bankers and all the other top establishment who are now getting worried there comfy lifestyles are under threat, no doubt we will be bombarded by their own propaganda to keep them living the high life.

As I said Darkwood, you make some good points, but I don't see where the facts are to support them. Not saying your making them up, but the IN & OUT camps both make various statements as fact, but I think the fact is nobody really knows what will happen if we leave, and no one knows what will happen if we stay in, but should of left. Both are a leap into the darkness.

Its difficult not to look back without using rose tinted specs, but Britain's economy faltered in the late sixties early seventies, when we then joined the EEC in 1973, when we probably had little choice not to.

Its a sad fact, but the big corporate's make big bucks, but that supplies the money for jobs, unless you believe in communism.

Still don't think migration is the be and end all of this referendum.

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

As I said Darkwood, you make some good points, but I don't see where the facts are to support them. Not saying your making them up, but the IN & OUT camps both make various statements as fact, but I think the fact is nobody really knows what will happen if we leave, and no one knows what will happen if we stay in, but should of left. Both are a leap into the darkness.

Its difficult not to look back without using rose tinted specs, but Britain's economy faltered in the late sixties early seventies, when we then joined the EEC in 1973, when we probably had little choice not to.

Its a sad fact, but the big corporate's make big bucks, but that supplies the money for jobs, unless you believe in communism.

Still don't think migration is the be and end all of this referendum.

Alot of the points I make are easily checked because we are already in the EU and we are experiencing the said issues now. Yes leaving has a certain amount of uncertainty but it more about dotting the i's and crossing the t's as appose to what the IN campaign make it out to be.
The EU is very scared of our exit and too bloody right too, if our trade is suddenly opened up to the rest of the world under our own deals without limits imposed then the EU has suddenly got competition and would have to offer a better deal to get our trade, a win win for us as we also increase trade with the rest of the world. It would cost the EU a lot both financially and its position as a world trader if we left, why should be be shackled just because there is an obvious air of uncertainty. It will however mean those in goverment would have to actually work harder for their salaries if we went alone and I'm not really uncomfortable with that idea at all.


I do agree with you, it shouldn't be all about migration but to the average joe bloggs on the street it is in a big problem in their eyes as it's out of control and it effects several areas of our daily lives unless like I mentioned earlier you're blessed with an area not 'yet' affected directly.

The vid' I posted of the young lass making a very valid point actually shows why camerons agreements albeit pointless ones in my mind cannot work, even if you restrict benefits for upto 4 yrs this will not slow down the influx at all, when your been payed 10x what you earn in your own country then that massive magnetic pull to the UK will continue to see immigration well beyond what we can cope with, if seeing the very heart of our society crumble isn't a good enough reason on its own then what is?
I'm not talking about things that may happen or may not, I talking about things that have happened already and are getting worse so you cannot say its scaremongering for me to express it.

You can even ask the IN crowd if immigration is too high for our infrastructure and services to cope with and they too agree it is, but here's is the crux of my argument which for some reason doesn't register to the IN crowd, the core basis of the EU is freedom of movement and that will never change, they have publically said this recently regarding our changes on the table and many times before, and while we keep our borders open to this free movement we are going to suffer for it, its not speculation, its happening and the evidence is everywhere. The 'ONLY' way to stop this massive influx is to take back control of our borders and to do that we have only one option, Brexit!

If there are any consequences of leaving which there probably will be initially then we will be 11billion pounds better off to help resolve it, by leaving we would slowly see our crippling services, education and housing catch up with our needs as we retake our borders and stem the flood to a managed trickle like before 1997 when restrictions on immigration were lifted as an exit present from Blair - but at least we know what level of immigration we can cope with and what is too much as we have many flow charts available that show immigration and its negative or positive effects.

 

[Octopus]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Mr Fiction asks for evidence :wink_smile:

and Mr Fiction mk2 offers nothing.....

 

[Diddy]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Alot of the points I make are easily checked because we are already in the EU and we are experiencing the said issues now. Yes leaving has a certain amount of uncertainty but it more about dotting the i's and crossing the t's as appose to what the IN campaign make it out to be.
The EU is very scared of our exit and too bloody right too, if our trade is suddenly opened up to the rest of the world under our own deals without limits imposed then the EU has suddenly got competition and would have to offer a better deal to get our trade, a win win for us as we also increase trade with the rest of the world. It would cost the EU a lot both financially and its position as a world trader if we left, why should be be shackled just because there is an obvious air of uncertainty. It will however mean those in goverment would have to actually work harder for their salaries if we went alone and I'm not really uncomfortable with that idea at all.


I do agree with you, it shouldn't be all about migration but to the average joe bloggs on the street it is in a big problem in their eyes as it's out of control and it effects several areas of our daily lives unless like I mentioned earlier you're blessed with an area not 'yet' affected directly.

The vid' I posted of the young lass making a very valid point actually shows why camerons agreements albeit pointless ones in my mind cannot work, even if you restrict benefits for upto 4 yrs this will not slow down the influx at all, when your been payed 10x what you earn in your own country then that massive magnetic pull to the UK will continue to see immigration well beyond what we can cope with, if seeing the very heart of our society crumble isn't a good enough reason on its own then what is?
I'm not talking about things that may happen or may not, I talking about things that have happened already and are getting worse so you cannot say its scaremongering for me to express it.

You can even ask the IN crowd if immigration is too high for our infrastructure and services to cope with and they too agree it is, but here's is the crux of my argument which for some reason doesn't register to the IN crowd, the core basis of the EU is freedom of movement and that will never change, they have publically said this recently regarding our changes on the table and many times before, and while we keep our borders open to this free movement we are going to suffer for it, its not speculation, its happening and the evidence is everywhere. The 'ONLY' way to stop this massive influx is to take back control of our borders and to do that we have only one option, Brexit!

If there are any consequences of leaving which there probably will be initially then we will be 11billion pounds better off to help resolve it, by leaving we would slowly see our crippling services, education and housing catch up with our needs as we retake our borders and stem the flood to a managed trickle like before 1997 when restrictions on immigration were lifted as an exit present from Blair - but at least we know what level of immigration we can cope with and what is too much as we have many flow charts available that show immigration and its negative or positive effects.

Yes we agree it is a problem but there are different ways to address the problem. One of them is to use the extra estimated 3% onto our GDP to build the bloody infrastructure required...That is jobs and cash for us all right there. And if we build with the future in mind (we used to at least try to do this) then we can all benefit.

As for the final paragraph.....Im afraid that is just rubbish - We are in the middle of politically motivated austerity - or mainly the way of tackling the austerity is politically motivated. For example bedroom tax or whatever we call it....Not saved more than a nats -------- in terms of money....but look at the human cost. Next up is cutting sickness benefit by £30 per week. The nhs is underfunded and on its arse...how do we deal with it ? Shall we put a penny or 2 pence on income tax.....nah that would be a vote looser lets just let it fail and let our mates in private healthcare firms make us all some easy cash.....Councils starved of cash revert to shutting down special needs schools, pensioner clubs ect ect ect.....Does the small savings make a difference to our national debt ? Nope not even a bit of it - So with all that said NO I do not think leaving the EU is going to make any government (Unless it is left wing labour) even consider restoring these services, They are cut for the sake of it - privatised for the hell of it - often with no real savings due to the ongoing cost just moved to other area's of national expenditure.

Oh and one last point - there is no such thing as a free trade agreement - even now every country that enjoy's this "free trade with the EU" must contribute to the upkeep of the EU - yes we run a trade deficit with them - BUT they beat our numbers ten fold - so the real question is 60 million shoppers or 600 million shoppers....So in essence once we leave we will still be paying for french farmers to not grow crops next year, We will still be paying for the EU parliament, We will still have to comply with ALL EU consumer laws and manufacturing standards ect ect IF we wish to sell there that is. There is no doubt that SOME countries in the EU would feel the pinch if the UK left.....but so would we IF we are talking in terms of either reduced trade or tariffs. It makes me laugh all of the "well they all hate the uk anyway"...then on the other hand - "they will bend over backwards to accommodate us if we leave"....both can't be correct can they ?

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

I have made this point before and will again, there is only so much materials, labour force, time aside for legal planning requirements etc that can be done within a given time, we cannot physically build things fast enough or have the available resources to do it at the current immigration rate, the ony way would be to outsource the labour but hey don't they too need somewhere to stay, medical care, schools for their kids if its a long term contract - vicious circle comes to mind.

The EU is even turning a blind eye to a growing practice that is seeing the UK flooding with illegal immigrants through a back door so to speak.
There is 10's of thousands of people of Indian origin walking across our borders legally because the have a right to claim citizenship in Portugal due to a ruling Portugal has (Anyone born before 1961 in area's that were once Portuguese colonies), these would normally be classed as illegal immigrants but once they get EU citizenship they then bring there family to Portugal get them recognised and most head to the UK, this again make a mockery of the Goverment and what the EU stands for, check out Swindon and find out how many immigrants have Portuguese passports yet and indian accent, its caused loads of issues for Swindon already.
I take it NIMBY effects alot of peoples train of thought on the EU matters, because they haven't yet been affected it easy to say Immigration isn't an issue in their mind.

As for your last paragraph I rebute back that if its all part of the Austerity measures causing all this then how come all these problems manifested themselves long before the recession or the conservatives recent seat in government, it started as far back as 97 with the initial effects been felt in 2000 onwards - long before your claims were even brought in, the only common denominator here was the massive surge in Immigration due to easing of restrictive measures, we have recently had a few more surges due to poorer nations been added to the EU, plans are afoot for more poor countries to join too so when you can't get your child to see a Doctor it not always right to point the blame at the government, there hands are kind of tide on alot of matters.
Why is the government so desperate to get an early date for the referendum, because come summer the EU is expecting a massive surge in Immigration as the warmer weather arrives and this would make it harder to convince the public that too much Immigration isn't the issue while they are subjected to daily reports of the damage its causing the EU.

 

[sparksburnout]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Not looked at this thread for a few days, and see that it is getting very deep and involved. so, how about taking things back to some basics? It is VERY difficult to get accurate figures, but I would suggest that the DAILY fees for being a member of this club, are around £24M. I will just spell that out, just in case it didn't sink in. TWENTY FOUR MILLION POUNDS A DAY. At the worst it is £53M and best so far £11M, so £24M seems a decent figure. A day. Now, what do you think we could do to our ailing services and all the problems we face generally, with £24 MILLION pounds a day?? Bit of a no brainer really in my book, no wonder the French and Germans do not want us to leave!!!!!

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Not looked at this thread for a few days, and see that it is getting very deep and involved. so, how about taking things back to some basics? It is VERY difficult to get accurate figures, but I would suggest that the DAILY fees for being a member of this club, are around £24M. I will just spell that out, just in case it didn't sink in. TWENTY FOUR MILLION POUNDS A DAY. At the worst it is £53M and best so far £11M, so £24M seems a decent figure. A day. Now, what do you think we could do to our ailing services and all the problems we face generally, with £24 MILLION pounds a day?? Bit of a no brainer really in my book, no wonder the French and Germans do not want us to leave!!!!!

Its approx 55million but we get some back hence the approx 25million figure but the crucial part about what we receive back is we are told what it is for and have no control where it goes, it tends to end up serving an agenda for the EU in some form or other.

What also pees me off is the argument that it's better in with a voice at the table than out, well out of the 72 challenges the UK has put on the table in recent years disagreeing with new laws and deals, guess how many we got through and stopped - NONE!... well thats working out well for us been part of the EU team :thinking:

 

[Spoon]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Its good to see that the news is not being biased....
If we leave the EU there will be camps in England like the ones that have just been removed from France & I think it was Rolls Royce, that will make lots of redundancies if we leave the EU.

 

[sparksburnout]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Its good to see that the news is not being biased....
If we leave the EU there will be camps in England like the ones that have just been removed from France & I think it was Rolls Royce, that will make lots of redundancies if we leave the EU.

perhaps you could explain the reasons for those two statements. Have you any evidence or logical reason as to why RR would make redundancies?? And if we leave the EU we can enforce our own border controls (£25M buys a lot of security a day) and stop them getting anywhere near. Your statement is just the usual scaremongering with no basis in fact.

 

[Midwest]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

Quick peruse of any of the news web sites will reveal those stories, not say which one, cos 'll be accused of believing everything I read.

 

[Octopus]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

On Question Time last night at least 2 of the audience stated that they don't know who or what to believe!

Too true Sherlock!

 

[Diddy]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

So the EU "cost's" us £25m per day.....Oh and they tell us how to spend the rebated £25m ? Apparently the 25 million difference is made up of our rebate AND the return grants and subsidies. The actual rebate part is just that...a rebate it never leaves the UK bank account. No figure on how much of the 25m is "rebate" and how much is subsidies/funds/grants ect...so we can't accurately say how much we spend freely and how much is via the grant's method where obv we are "told" where to spend.
Second point about this perceived 25 million saving - Is everyone forgetting that we/anyone would STILL need to pay the EU for a free trade agreement lol. They don't do free trade arrangements, Ask Switzerland, Norway, Iceland who ALL pay to be involved in the "free trade agreement"....what a joke of a term that is.
By the way ALL of these countries have also had to sign up to free movement of people,goods and services. So that opens up a can of worms as "most" people's fears is the free movement of people - If you want to trade with the EU you have to agree to these terms and pay the membership costs.
Here is a wiki that describes the EEA in action - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

 

[Darkwood]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

So the EU "cost's" us £25m per day.....Oh and they tell us how to spend the rebated £25m ? Apparently the 25 million difference is made up of our rebate AND the return grants and subsidies. The actual rebate part is just that...a rebate it never leaves the UK bank account. No figure on how much of the 25m is "rebate" and how much is subsidies/funds/grants ect...so we can't accurately say how much we spend freely and how much is via the grant's method where obv we are "told" where to spend.
Second point about this perceived 25 million saving - Is everyone forgetting that we/anyone would STILL need to pay the EU for a free trade agreement lol. They don't do free trade arrangements, Ask Switzerland, Norway, Iceland who ALL pay to be involved in the "free trade agreement"....what a joke of a term that is.
By the way ALL of these countries have also had to sign up to free movement of people,goods and services. So that opens up a can of worms as "most" people's fears is the free movement of people - If you want to trade with the EU you have to agree to these terms and pay the membership costs.
Here is a wiki that describes the EEA in action - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Economic_Area

Firstly that is 25million PER DAY - if free trade accounts for a sizeable chunk of it then we would be better of without 'free trade' as they like to put it.
Secondly, we are the 5th strongest economical nation in the world, we sell way more than we buy from the EU so that already would give us the bargaining chip, plus the EU has free trade deals with countries outside the EU so in our position I cannot see leaving the EU would cost us in that sense, we deal (where we are permitted) with many other nations around the globe quite happily and yes there may be inport and export tarriffs but these are insignificant in the scope of things, companies still make profits, shoppers still buy and the world still turns. Try imagine an EU country trying to sell its goods to us yet we have just opened the rest of the world to trading, its called competition, the EU would find itself competing with other countries thus having to match or beat them - this is why trading limits on member states exist, its to protect the EU own interests at the cost of consumers possibly getting a better deal.

All these Scaremongering stories about free trade stopping and costs rocketing should be falling to the other EU members if we left as we carry the best hand to arrange an even better deal, the EU is fully aware of this as it trades with China and America etc who don't have the same deals as member states but they are not suffering for it either. When your one of the biggest Economies in the world that comes with some negotiating power, this is why using Switz' Norway or Iceland as comparrisons a non starter.

As a Nation we are well placed to leave the EU, get better deals with the EU and open our trade borders to a big chunk of the World market that we are limited from doing. I'm the kind of bloke who believes in our Country and it global position, its an easy option to just say leave things as they are because at least we know what's happening, well if the UK was an Employee and the Brussels its Boss, judging by the last decades performance of the company, I'd have left years ago and found another boss - IE.. Me!

This opportunity has taken 40+years to come and that was by accident as a Election sweetener that came to haunt Cameron, with the expected 1million influx of migrants the edition of free movement to Turkey and the fact the Euro is on the brink of collapse in the world stage, if any of these happen while we are still shackled then we will be pulled down too.

Thus I put it and yes this is my opinion that its far riskier to stay a member than to leave.

Lastly take a look at France's position on the Calais border, if that was to return to the UK then France would become once again the hub of a massive increase in migrant flow, we will be in charge of our borders we simply can make sure like with Planes that anyone boarding the Trains, Ferries etc have to show there passes and passports at the French end thus they would still make camp in France not here, this is partly why the UK and France did this border deal, before this deal the migrants still camped at France end looking for opportunities but in bigger numbers, the deal was a deterant to stem the attraction of migrants using France as a route and it worked quite well, now France threatening to return to the old system is just, again, scaremongering.

 

[plugsandsparks]

Re: EU - How will you vote given the latest "news"

perhaps you could explain the reasons for those two statements. Have you any evidence or logical reason as to why RR would make redundancies?? And if we leave the EU we can enforce our own border controls (£25M buys a lot of security a day) and stop them getting anywhere near. Your statement is just the usual scaremongering with no basis in fact.

I don't think he's advocating just reporting, anyway I am now so terrified of the aftermath of a Brexit according to the remain campaign I am preparing to emigrate. Why - well its out of control now and likely to get worse if we stay in, not what I want, and its going to be a catastrophe on jobs, security and general badness if we leave.