Sod off it was him that started all this cr*p!
D
Darkwood
No one says immigration is a bad thing and both sides agree on that, both sides also agree that we currently have too much immigration and you can only reduce it by controlling it, the issue is how to control it, the EU has a fundamental rule of free movement and will not budge on it so as they control our borders to EU citizens then the only plausible way of controlling our borders again is to leave the EU ....to say Europe will turn a blind eye to who leaves their borders doesn't make sense, its not the countries the immigrants leave that control migration its the borders of the country that they enter, you still have to show your passport when you arrive even if your from the EU, if we regain control then we can choose who comes and how they benefit our country so if we have a nurse shortage that cannot be filled by UK citizens then we gives a higher points award to anyone wanting to come in with the right skills, this system then is fair no matter what country your from around the world and doesn't give priority to say a Greek Doctor over an Indian doctor just because of where they come from... at the moment we cannot say no to any EU citizen and we are having to put stricter control on non-EU immigrants which is biased and unfair and as has been proven not to be workable, limiting overall immigration while we have unrestricted EU member access cannot be done. I don't know your age here but the majority of the Elder populous want out and the reason is mainly because they have witnessed over the last 40yrs how the EU has impacted the UK, how when anyone could access a doctor within 24hrs, where education standards were higher and we had enough places at your school of choice for your children, where you could leave school and get a job and apply for a mortgage with a high rate of success, even been part of the EU all this was possible until about 1997 then as a leaving gift Tony Blair cut lots of red tape regarding immigration which led to a massive rise from an easily managed 30000 a year to what we now see as well over 300 000 officially but is estimated to be 800000 as many don't go through the system to be counted.
Just take a look at our Jails with some now >50% EU criminals and the EU red tape is so difficult to get through that it means we have a small towns worth of criminals waiting deportation just to the EU alone, taking our borders back and controlling them would stop EU criminals legally coming to the UK as we will only take in EU members who show they would benefit our society. Its worked for Australia and is still working so this is in no way a leap in the dark as we have a well trialed model to follow, what did make me laugh was Camerons reply saying immigration in Australia's point based system is twice that of the UK until someone pointed out to him that that is because they choose it to be.
If we leave and regain control then:-
-Thousands of places in jails become available.
-Housing can start to catch up with demand which will see prices lower for first time buyers.
-Wages for the poorest will rise as big PLC's can no longer favour the low skilled lower wage EU citizens from a UK citizen.
-Hospital, Doctors waiting times start to fall as our National health is no longer trying to supplement the International position it finds itself in.
-Lower demand for school places and less pupils whose first laungage isn't English, this means teachers are not having to give more resources and attention to non English EU citizens at the cost in time and education of our own offspring.
These and many more are just the plausable benefits of taking back control and are based on recent UK history when Immigration was at a controllable level so not based on wild fanciful guesses, it used to be like this but with the intergration of yet more poorer nations into the EU we will see yet more rises in immigration and as the southern EU members see no ease in youth unemployment and massive debts to Brussels its clear its going to get alot worse before it gets better.
When more poorer members join up we are set to be asked to give more to the EU as we were when Poland, Romania etc joined... so unless someone can justify staying in as oppose to scaremongering what nasty things would happen if we left then Im obviously out and thats based on following EU politics for years.
O
Octopus
On LBC this morning they wanted people to call in and recount the most ridiculous thing they had heard from either "camp" - I was too busy to try but the best one I've heard so far is:
David Cameron on the Sky EU debate "we can control immigration from within the EU"
Moron.
We know he can't, he knows he can't, so why say it?
David Cameron on the Sky EU debate "we can control immigration from within the EU"
Moron.
We know he can't, he knows he can't, so why say it?
O
Octopus
You forgot one.
If we leave ALL the international companies will HAVE TO do proper tax returns and business accounts for their UK subsidiaries - none of this moving profit to Luxembourg for its lower tax rate....
Absolutely right Tel. I think DW is wasted as a sparky, he should be running the country.
Daily mail???!! What are you going on about.
Dont jump to conclusions now, I'm not all for mass immigration. I think we all know the main problem but not allowed to say it.
My gut instinct tells me to be very wary of what Boris and Farage are telling us.
Why?? Go on, what's the main problem?
He waffle's on a bit though. Mind you, so do most politicians!
How about they lie, like pigs in manure. I refer you to post 497.
D
Darkwood
Boris is Boris I must agree, but Farage is kind of a different kettle of fish, as part of the UKIP he has by those who don't really follow politics been classed as racist, xenophobic, biggot etc etc you name it, he's been tagged with it and in some cases he only has himself to blame for not choosing his words better but although Mr Farage is somewhat a recent political entity to most UK people he's been well known in Brussels for many a year and throughout that time he has done nothing else but stand up for the UK and and critisise the unelected undemocratic elite that runs the EU, love him or hate him you can actually thank Mr Farage for the referendum as it was the Tories base fear of losing votes to UKIP that forced Cameron to make his fateful promise of a referendum in the first place, un-beknown to Mr Cameron Labour voting would crash mainly to do with SNP stripping them of a sizeable chunk of votes and also LIB Dems plummeted for betraying the very people that prop them up... this Led is a Conservative majority which wasn't on anyones cards including Cam's hence he said he would offer a referendum if they won, at best he expected another coalition thus he could default on that promise.
Mr Cameron now in theory could go down as the catalyst that destroyed the EU, not that it was doing so well anyway but if we were to leave and prosper the knock on effects for the EU could be deep as other countries see the benefits of trading worldwide without been ring fenced into a trade block and limited to external trade.... this is all hypothetical of course but not that far fetched IMHO, what ever happens, if we did exit then the EU has some changes to make to stop itself imploding any further than it has now...
Strange all negative stories about the EU are not on our news a lately like the music concert in Germany where immigrants were sexually assaulting and raping people, or the greek immigrant camp where internal rioting between immigrant from different backgrounds due to children been raped and assaulted or even the riots in some member states that have occured recently.... its almost like we are in a George Orwell movie where information is controlled to benefit the state.
I simply don't trust them.
Do you respect and trust Boris?
A few quotes for you.
“Fundamental renegotiation is very, very unlikely to produce any significant change,” Vince Cable, on the subject of Cameron’s plans 10th September 2013
“I have lived in your future ….and it doesn’t work” (Russian dissident Vladimir Bukovsky on the EU)
‘If it’s a Yes we will say “on we go”, and if it’s a No we will say “we continue”.’ (Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Council)
“They must go on voting until they get it right.” (Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission)
“Let’s be clear about this. The rejection of the constitution was a mistake that will have to be corrected.” (Valéry Giscard d’Estaing)
“The ‘no’ votes were a demand for more Europe, not less.” (Romano Prodi, former President of the European Commission)
“No government dependent on a democratic vote could possibly agree in advance to the sacrifices which any adequate plan for European Union must involve. The people must be led slowly and unconsciously into the abandonment of their traditional economic defences, not asked…” (Peter Thorneycroft, former Tory MP)
“The huge cost of the Common Agricultural Policy to taxpayers and consumers far outweighs any benefit to them…” (Memo by MAFF to House of Lords European Communities Committee 1995)
“Fundamental renegotiation is very, very unlikely to produce any significant change,” Vince Cable, on the subject of Cameron’s plans 10th September 2013
“I have lived in your future ….and it doesn’t work” (Russian dissident Vladimir Bukovsky on the EU)
‘If it’s a Yes we will say “on we go”, and if it’s a No we will say “we continue”.’ (Jean-Claude Juncker, President of the European Council)
“They must go on voting until they get it right.” (Jose Manuel Barroso, President of the European Commission)
“Let’s be clear about this. The rejection of the constitution was a mistake that will have to be corrected.” (Valéry Giscard d’Estaing)
“The ‘no’ votes were a demand for more Europe, not less.” (Romano Prodi, former President of the European Commission)
“No government dependent on a democratic vote could possibly agree in advance to the sacrifices which any adequate plan for European Union must involve. The people must be led slowly and unconsciously into the abandonment of their traditional economic defences, not asked…” (Peter Thorneycroft, former Tory MP)
“The huge cost of the Common Agricultural Policy to taxpayers and consumers far outweighs any benefit to them…” (Memo by MAFF to House of Lords European Communities Committee 1995)
D
Darkwood
Your lucky this is a side interest and not my main study, if we were on a quantum physics thread then all bets are off
as that's my hobby.It isn't about individuals and whether or not you trust them, it is about forming an opinion based on the evidence available, and a common sense approach as to what the future will bring. Contrary to your previous comment, our services are already dangerously stretched. We have problems with housing stock, oversized classrooms, social services and a gradual drop in levels of pay particularly amongst unskilled workers. There are unacceptable levels of unemployment among young people over much of Europe, because growth in the EU has been stifled. As can be seen from the quotes provided by Silverfox the EU is an un-demoratic monster led by unelected power crazed and as far as I am concerned untrustworthy politicians. We pay outrageous sums of money in order to bolster up the failing or failed economies of many of the other member states, money that we could be far better invested in our own country. The NHS is providing health care for half of Europe, no wonder it is falling apart. We have been conned right from day one by that clown Ted Heath and his like, and in my opinion we need to take this golden opportunity to abandon this mess and stand on our own two feet again. To answer your question I think Boris speaks a damn sight more sense than most of the Remain mob and I respect him a lot more than Cameron, Osborne & Co.
i'd trust boris before i'd trust the hyenas that are at present in the government and the main opposition.
well said. my sentiments exactly.
O
Octopus
Hum.... so if its a win for out and the EU ask us to vote again do they think we will say yes on the 2nd try? I think its likely to alienate more people and just go to show how undemocratic the EU is.
After all about 4 weeks ago the Dutch had a vote and the EU completely ignored their wishes....
They will be the next out after us.
An interesting development.
[h=1]MPs 'considering using majority' to keep UK in single market[/h]
see here. MPs 'considering using majority' to keep UK in single market - BBC News
[h=1]MPs 'considering using majority' to keep UK in single market[/h]
see here. MPs 'considering using majority' to keep UK in single market - BBC News
just had a skim through that. appears that when the electorate vote for out, the government will then elect to stay in the single market, thus scuppering the desires of the majority who vote out mainly to abolish things that the gov. will then vote to retain. that's democracy for you.
O
Octopus
And if they did that my crystal ball sees a UKIP majority in 2020 - which is how the UK population would "reward" the foolish MP's by kicking them out.
The vote is for in or out of the EU, the Vote Leave people have not said what their post referendum vision for the UK is.
They've mentioned various models ie the Norwegian model, the Canadian model even the Albanian mode ffs, and others. They've talked about being totally out of the free market and a sort of part in part out version.
Given that, who do you think should decide if not our democratically elected government?
They've mentioned various models ie the Norwegian model, the Canadian model even the Albanian mode ffs, and others. They've talked about being totally out of the free market and a sort of part in part out version.
Given that, who do you think should decide if not our democratically elected government?
it's not that. it's the lies and spin. if the vote is for out, then that should mean out. that includes out of the single market which is crippling us and scrapping contributions to the EU, controlling migration from the EU,and our democratically inepted government making UK laws for the UK. from what he says, the hyenas will probably votre to negate all the advantages of leaving will bring. the phrase "sour grapes" comes to mind.
Completely 100% out is one end of a very wide spectrum Tel. I think you're correct in that what most people voting out want that. But not all and certainly not the leaders of vote leave.
Maybe another referendum is called for.
One way to avoid the mess would be to vote remain.:smiley2:
The EU is a really desperate organisation that is continually creating laws or if you prefer directives to perpetuate their ability to levy fees or fines. We keep hearing of this magical veto that can prevent the EU from going against us and our interests yet this seems to have limited effect when the EU commission are involved. Even now they have delayed legislation that will affect the UK because they don't want it to affect the referendum vote if we remain are we going to be swamped with a load of new laws or directives and more demands for money to prop the EU up
I have often tried to understand how the EU thought it could change nature with straight cucumbers and bananas that had a specified bend radius and then they were considering monitoring backgroud ethylene levels in the atmosphere and taxing fruit ripeners and other users of ethylene if the levels increased when there are other variables as to why ethylene levels may increase. So much of how the EU affects us directly and indirectly is kept under the radar to stop us knowing to much
Getting a little bit fed up with the referendum campaigns to date going round in circles with the remain camp stating we are better in because it is a known quantity and to leave would be catastrophic and the leave campaign seem unable to put forward a robust economic argument to leave that isn't knocked down. While we know what we have with the EU now if we remain in what can we expect of the EU in the next 12 months, 5 years, 10 years in the ever growing spiral of countries joining who can't afford the subs and are looking for a bailout to support their under performing economies it can only cost us more and / or reduce any grants and subsidies that UK gets now
The EU "experiment" has IMO run it's course and has proved that politics and corruption are good partners for an elite few
I have often tried to understand how the EU thought it could change nature with straight cucumbers and bananas that had a specified bend radius and then they were considering monitoring backgroud ethylene levels in the atmosphere and taxing fruit ripeners and other users of ethylene if the levels increased when there are other variables as to why ethylene levels may increase. So much of how the EU affects us directly and indirectly is kept under the radar to stop us knowing to much
Getting a little bit fed up with the referendum campaigns to date going round in circles with the remain camp stating we are better in because it is a known quantity and to leave would be catastrophic and the leave campaign seem unable to put forward a robust economic argument to leave that isn't knocked down. While we know what we have with the EU now if we remain in what can we expect of the EU in the next 12 months, 5 years, 10 years in the ever growing spiral of countries joining who can't afford the subs and are looking for a bailout to support their under performing economies it can only cost us more and / or reduce any grants and subsidies that UK gets now
The EU "experiment" has IMO run it's course and has proved that politics and corruption are good partners for an elite few
O
Octopus
And commit the UK to the fraud and mess and lack of democracy called the EU - no thanks.
If the vote was to reinstall the aims and goals of the EEC and remove the Euro I would vote remain without ANY hesitation.... but to continue with the current situation and force ALL new countries that enter the EU to also adopt the Euro is pure madness. Most of the Countries who have joined the EU since 1990 should NOT be in the Euro.
Of course the OUT campaigners cannot put forward a cast-iron plan of exactly how it will be once we are out, because it is blindingly obvious that we cannot know until we do it. I cannot understand how people expect them to do so. What they can do is use the evidence that is before us to point to all the problems that the EU is now causing us and will continue to do so with an increasingly detrimental effect. The negative effects and aspects do not actually seem to be disputed amongst most of the people I have talked to, rather some of them just have the attitude of "oooooohh we can't risk it better the devil you know" and so on. Well IMO it's a good job we didn't have that attitude 50 odd years ago! I for one would rather take a brave step forward and have the courage of my convictions, I am totally convinced that we would be able to continue to trade with the EU but also be able to make other trading relationships with the rest of the world, a lot of which has far better growth than the EU does, as well as freeing up vast sums of cash to put right all the cuts that have had to be made to the EU bill for years. The EU is descending into madness, we should have the belief in ourselves to leave it behind and strive for something better, because I for one think we deserve not to be run and dictated to by the likes of Junkers and Co. Why, when I picture in my mind these EU commissioners, do I get an image of Sepp Blatter?? Say no more......
What nonsense, from the first word to the last.
Why cant vote leave tell us what they see as our relationship with the EU will be after a vote to leave? They must have at least a semblance of an idea as to what they want, and if they say they haven't then any one who believes them is a mug. I'm not asking how it will all pan out in the long run, (I think I know the answer to that) but merely an idea of what we replace membership with.
I certainly do not see the negative effects the same as you seem to, what there are, are clearly outweighed by the benefits.
You may be correct about our attitude 50 years ago but you'll have to remind me exactly happened in the mid sixty's to underpin that boast.
No one has ever said that we will not be able to trade with the EU after exit and we already do a lot of trade with the rest of the world.
I have immense belief in ourselves to prosper in and out of the EU, that's not the question. It's whether we will be better off in or out.
As to why you get an image of Sepp Blatter when you picture an EU commissioner, that might go along way to describing your lack of grasp or reality.
Which side did you come down on MW?Well my little vote has gone into the envelope and into the post-box.:wink_smile::44::smug:
(It's a big vote BTW)
I sometimes wonder what planet some people are on, I really do. If you still cannot see them after all the comments and evidence that has been put forward to date, then I guess you never will.
D
Darkwood
The EU is a massively corrupt empire hence it couldn't give a audit clean bill of health to at least 100billion, we are not talking a few million here, If my tax is to go into the EU they need to be held accountable but guess what, they are legally protected and you cannot remove them from power. Take a look at this link about the underhand shady goings on within the EU, a study into the level of corruption believed to be throughout the EU - its gobsmacking and even if the figure were a little high then still we are talking of a system that is corrupt to its core.. ever wondered why massive UK based contracts end up going to EU members rathers than our own workforce, ever wonder why the government cannot give any credible answers well have a gander at this recent study... Corruption costs EU ?up to ?990 billion a year? ? POLITICO
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You're mixing two things up there DW.
The piece by Politico is about corruption within the EU not by the EU. It was commissioned by the EU. There is corruption everywhere, try looking at the US. There is corruption in this country, not only within the UK but the bribing that goes on around the world by British companies.
The accounts not being signed of are an old myth. The last fully audited accounts (2013) were passed correct for the seventh year in a row, accounting for every euro spent.
What I'm saying Sparks is that I don't see what you perceive as the negatives in the same light as you.
D
Darkwood
I know it 2 seperate issues, I tried making it clear I was talking 2 points but was showing the level of corruption from both sides of the coin, the EU itself cannot balance its books to the tune of 100billion and it basically is sitting back and doing little to stop the indepth level of curruption amongst it members. In leaving we are not throwing money at a system that cannot account for itself and also we raise a barrier and reduce the likelyhood of said corruption rife throughout the EU effecting us direct. You are right we have it in the UK too but it will be easier to control or stop if we get back all the powers that are currently held by brussels and stopping us from dealing with it.
[h=2]Oliver Cromwell - Dissolution of the Long Parliament 1653[/h] [h=3]Dissolution of the Long Parliament by Oliver Cromwell given to the House of Commons, 20 April 1653.[/h] Speech
It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.
Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?
Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.
In the name of God, go!
Oliver Cromwell - April 20, 1653
Some things never change do they.
It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.
Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?
Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.
In the name of God, go!
Oliver Cromwell - April 20, 1653
Some things never change do they.
Now that would be telling, and in the perquisite of the importance of encouraging people to vote, I ain't gonna tell ya, but I could be persuaded. :flowers:
As a democratic comment, I think it is pretty obvious how MW has voted. I am on holiday on the 23rd, so I have already cancelled him out..........
Oh no I cancelled you out :yesnod:
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