New rewire and fuse board - views on work.

Dustydazzler said:

No issue with this approach

Although I would have tried my best to persuade you to go for a full Rcbo board , for the extra 90-100 quid on materials it is a far superior set up

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Hi Dusty, If I had known that they are superior and advised I'd have gone for it. The board discussion was only after the

nicebutdim said:

The above is one of many reasons why a lot of electricians insist upon supplying materials - or at the very least writing a comprehensive list.

Your new board is not what many would recommend, for reasons previously outlined, but having a dual RCD board doens't present any inherent danger. It can be argued that such boards should no longer be fitted, and I'd be the first to argue that very point, but changing it again will present significant cost and this would be borne by you as the board was your choice.

Provided the wiring in your home is good, and connections sound, the risk of problems should be exceptionally low and it might be best to get any real issues resolved and chalk the rest up to experience. I doubt you'll be using this electrician again, but in future would look for word of mouth recommendations or ask for someone local on a specialist forum like this one.

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Again someone not reading - he was going to supply and fit a dual RCD board. All I did was change brand.

Debrahim said:

Again someone not reading - he was going to supply and fit a dual RCD board. All I did was change brand.

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I understand that and have already addressed the point - what I went on to point out is why many electricians insist upon supplying materials. That also benefits the customer as their electrician is responsible if any components are subsequently found to be unsuitable or should they fail while under warranty.

If your electrician had supplied the board, there might have been an argument that it doesn't meet current requirements, with you only having to bear any difference in cost. As things stand, while you still have a valid argument against this dual RCD set up, the cost of new materials would be down to you. As such, my advice was to get the small issues sorted and not worry about RCBOs.

Here's a picture of a Fusebox CU with compact RCBOs recently installed by me , this wouldn't cost an awful lot more than the dual RCD Hager board you specified and is good quality. I think how a CU is fitted/connected up gives a fair idea of an electricians attitude to their work and any decent Electrical Tradesperson would produce something like this.

timhoward said:

It's a slightly subjective one. "RCDs shall be selected and the circuits subdivided in such a way that any earth leakage current likely to occur during normal operation of the connected load will not cause unwanted tripping of the device"
One might argue that stacking 8 (or 7 and a spare?) circuits on a single RCD is pushing it a bit.
On the other hand if he measured the normal leakage current as <=9ma then he's complied with a further ident of the same reg.

I think you've had good advice already. It's not neat and tidy, it could use some cable restraint, and wiser decisions could have been made laying out the board. They look like Type A RCD's, it has SPD protection and it's a decent brand.

It sounds as though you have had an almost complete rewire for a pretty decent price for London.
The smoke alarm setup is probably in fact a good idea as if that circuit trips you will know about it as it is also feeding lighting.

I actually can't see an NICEIC complaint getting far with this one, we've seen much worse on here and their first response will be to ask you to put your complaints in writing to the sparks anyway. They will only get involved (and reluctantly) if relationships completely break down or he refuses to address your complaint.
I'd suggest a civil conversation with him to request he tidies up a bit, and double check there's a CPC wire in the SPD.

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Thank you,
I'm afraid what the NICEIC say, and what the law is, may well be completely different. The latter, however I am fully aware of. Why would I complain to a body that he pays hundreds of pounds to a year?

I am happy with it being tidied up, etc - but the lie for it being such a mess is laughable. He must think I am an idiot.

Prompted by the questions regarding the red and black wires, - there was a specific charge to run a new feed to the light on the second floor, likewise with the sockets. However they are red and black and it is clear therefore it has not been completed.

I am just grateful that I have the other fuse board providing for my kitchen. It is clear just looking at it, the labels, the fact the wires are put together before it comes into the fuse board that it was done by someone who cares. The builders subcontracted them in, perhaps I should have looked for the cert and their details, but instead relied on one of the many review websites.

I've never been in such a position before and have paid all the other trades as agreed and on time. The fact now he hasn't done work as part on the contract puts me in a very difficult place.

Dave OCD said:

Here's a picture of a Fusebox CU with compact RCBOs recently installed by me , this wouldn't cost an awful lot more than the dual RCD Hager board you specified and is good quality. I think how a CU is fitted/connected up gives a fair idea of an electricians attitude to their work and any decent Electrical Tradesperson would produce something like this.

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I think you are defo right. Part of me thinks whether I should leave it be, or whether I should get a competent spark to rip it out, and fit a new one with RCBO's.

Funny enough the picture of the fuseboard he installed on his my builder account is pretty much faultless.

When it comes to judging someone #53 says it all and the picture he shows on My Builder probably wasn't something he had done.

nicebutdim said:

I understand that, and the reasons why, but if a customer specifically requested fitment of a quality dual RCD board, I can't see any reason not to.

I'd certainly put forth a persuasive argument in favour of an alternative set up, but can't think of any reason why one shouldn't be fitted at a customer's request.

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I supply two quotes when quoting a board, one for dual rcd, one for full rcbo, with a strong recommendation to fit the rcbo board and with the continuing drop in rcbo costs this is getting an easier argument to win in most cases

I would say I get about 60% go with the rcbo board( when it’s their own property mostly)

for rentals they always seem to go with the cheapest option, even though I explain it’s potentially a false economy

I earn the same profit to fit either, I would not like to risk losing potentially 40% of the work by refusing to fit a dual rcd board, that’s their choice

Dave OCD said:

Here's a picture of a Fusebox CU with compact RCBOs recently installed by me , this wouldn't cost an awful lot more than the dual RCD Hager board you specified and is good quality. I think how a CU is fitted/connected up gives a fair idea of an electricians attitude to their work and any decent Electrical Tradesperson would produce something like this.

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Great install

Agree with all comments, usually the client will have no idea what’s happening inside the DB..& yes it’s very untidy..the cables entering the DB will need trunking.
Also like others have said if a Certificate been issued then the responsibility lies with that person, not an ideal situation, it’s really your Call.. obviously the relationship between you & the Sparks are a bit “tainted“ & who can blame you, a meeting with him maybe the option & a tidy up of items you are concerned of… good luck..

Debrahim said:

I’m refusing to pay him the final payment - he is going to come around and sort it.

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It should have been done in the begging
What was his company called heniz electrical, I would not pay him.

Debrahim said:

I’ve checked on the website, he’s part P. I found him on my builder with over 100 reviews and 100% positive rating.

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You are only has good what you do regarding skill and judgement.
Buzz book of proverbs.

I can honestly say that I haven't fitted a dual RCD board since around 2019 , they were a crap design when they came out in the 17th Ed and are still a crap design now

Debrahim said:

Hi,

I’d appreciate views on the fuse board.

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Image B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

It’s been completely rewired and I’m unhappy with the quality.

I’ve messaged him about it and described the board as a complete mess, and poor workmanship ship. For entry for the 25mm cables and 16mm tails he used the knock out but didn’t bother using the plastic cable holder - which is a couple of quid.

Also with the cables coming in through the back, there is no plastic or anything so the metal of the board could rub against the metal of the board.

his reply is below

a. - there is a reason why cables shouldn't be perfectly arrange in the fuse box because it could create electromagnetic field resulting in humming sound in the fuse box- you would probably think that's ridiculous ! But it's a fact!


Quite frankly I’m shocked, would you be happy with the work, paying over 4k? And supplying the board all second fix items etc? So basically 5k?

He has also created 5 additional lighting circuits downstairs, I live in a three bed terraced house.

1) for 6 down lights in a 2.5m x 2m room.
2) just the ground hallway light.
3) the lounge dinner, two lights and two wall lights.
4) a porch light and floodlight.
5) under stairs light simply 2 lights.

His reply is that it is is better… but then it’s all on a dual rcd so it doesn’t really help in my opinion.

We agreed the whole of downstairs on a circuit except the hallway on a separate one. (He said that was best practice.

I’ve attached photos and the pieces that I believe should go there. One is too big.

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What I noticed on the DB, if you look at the SPD on the right of the main Isolator, at the bottom side the N busbar link is bare, like the plastic cover was cut. I know that it doesn't come like that from the manufacturer.

timhoward said:

@westward10 my understanding is that they look like this - and I'd expect to see some glimpse of the CPC .

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I fitted a hager SPD board 2 or 3 months back. I recall it being configured strangely, it came with the link across the top, but IIRC it didn't have a CPC connecting it to earth, I think it made the connection via the DIN rail. Basically as in the picture in the OP.

Here's a photo, there was no CPC. I feel like I should go back to the job now to confirm that it is connected to earth via the din rail.



I actually thought it was defective at first, because of the vaguely red window (I'm sure older hager SPDs had a green window when ok), so contacted Mastertrade, who helpfully forwarded info from hager explaining that it will go solid red when expired.

DPG said:

8 circuits on one RCD - that's not good.

Decent quality board though. And an SPD fitted.

Cracking excuse for untidy wiring - it avoids electromagnetic interference making the fuseboard hum!!

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You should read some post on hifi forums !!!

nicebutdim said:

The above is one of many reasons why a lot of electricians insist upon supplying materials - or at the very least writing a comprehensive list.

Your new board is not what many would recommend, for reasons previously outlined, but having a dual RCD board doens't present any inherent danger. It can be argued that such boards should no longer be fitted, and I'd be the first to argue that very point, but changing it again will present significant cost and this would be borne by you as the board was your choice.

Provided the wiring in your home is good, and connections sound, the risk of problems should be exceptionally low and it might be best to get any real issues resolved and chalk the rest up to experience. I doubt you'll be using this electrician again, but in future would look for word of mouth recommendations or ask for someone local on a specialist forum like this one.

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I also agree with the opinion , that there is nothing wrong with fitting Dual RCD DB. It's mainly matter of convenience for me, when using RCBO's instead of dual RCD, in case of a fault. At the moment we are finishing residential apartments complex, using exactly the same Hagger DB's. I must have tested 300 of them so far. Regarding the mentioned above DB job, it's cheaply done, but this very common, when a client choses the cheapest offers. Normally, I would use gland for the meter tails and supporting clips. Cables contained in 50x50mm trunking(or bigger) , and using metal bushes/lockrings instead of the knockouts. All gaps/cable entry sealed with fire mastic. And at the end - all connections within DB tightened with torque screwdriver by manufacturer's specifications(nearly nobody is doing that, but yesterday was called out to sort a problem because of loose busbar connection in DB). Also I would leave a spare MCB before the 1st RCD(for security alarm/fire alarm/ disability / garrage DB circuits).

Debrahim said:

I’ve noticed this and have pointed this out.

He is a niceic registered electrician which I’ve verified with them.

I’ve also noted that if the fuse on the right goes I will loose both power and lights to the upstairs and third floor (loft).

As an electrician would you be satisfied with the standard of work ? He deems it good quality and states he’s been registered for 15 years.

I’ve checked on the website, he’s part P. I found him on my builder with over 100 reviews and 100% positive rating.

You say dual rcd is not recommended. If im honest I didn’t want to spend the money on a rcbo- there are 14 circuits.

If I wanted to change this to a rcbo, could I simply buy the rcbo’ or would I need to install a whole new board ?

Is it possible in this fuse board to add a third rcd, to split some of the stuff, in case one trips etc ?

Or even is it possible to put an rcbo in there? Obviously I know it would need to come before the RCD.


Perhaps just for upstairs sockets so we have some power in an emergency.

no this is after the rewire.

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What rewire ??? one or two circuits maybe but as mentioned there is old coded cables showing

Pretty Mouth said:

Here's a photo, there was no CPC. I feel like I should go back to the job now to confirm that it is connected to earth via the din rail.

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It's taken some concerted searching, as the numbers on the front are the cartridge numbers SPB015 and SPB105N.
I believe the whole assembly is knows as VME02SPD, and the instructions (which also mention those cartridges) show a CPC connected. But it wasn't easy to find this.

westward10 said:

Yes the Regulations do not advise them for residential properties.

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Dave OCD said:

Here's a picture of a Fusebox CU with compact RCBOs recently installed by me , this wouldn't cost an awful lot more than the dual RCD Hager board you specified and is good quality. I think how a CU is fitted/connected up gives a fair idea of an electricians attitude to their work and any decent Electrical Tradesperson would produce something like this.

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Hi, just curious, are your Meter tails burried in the wall?

My take on dual RCD boards:

The regulations don't require us to fit RCBO boards in residential, they don't even recommend them (as they do for AFDDs, and how many of us are fitting those as standard?). It just asks us to consider using them as a means of avoiding unwanted tripping.

I don't see much evidence that accumulated normal earth leakage reaches levels where it would cause nuisance tripping in normal sized homes, even when one 30mA RCD protects the entire installation. That, along with the OSG still offering dual RCD boards as a solution, makes me think that they are still acceptable.

I prefer RCBO boards, but I still think the choice is up to my customers. I explain the benefits and then it's up to them to decide.

timhoward said:

It's taken some concerted searching, as the numbers on the front are the cartridge numbers SPB015 and SPB105N.
I believe the whole assembly is knows as VME02SPD, and the instructions (which also mention those cartridges) show a CPC connected. But it wasn't easy to find this.

https://www.electrical4less.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ZD0906_VME02SPD_SURGE_KIT_INSTRUCTIONS.pdf

https://hager.com/uk/products/download/product/asset/file/ZD0906_VME02SPD_SURGE_KIT_INSTRUCTIONS.PDF/

View attachment 105147
View attachment 105148

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The board I fitted came with the SPD already installed, with the solid link across the top. I wish I'd taken a closer look at it now, but it was a difficult board change that ran on into the evening (you know those ones where every single thing about it is difficult), so I didn't pay it a great deal of attention .

I might check this with Hager

Pretty Mouth said:

I might check this with Hager

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I'd certainly be interested to know the outcome. I've only ever fitted one of those and had to add the module myself, and it came with a bit of 6mm CPC that obviously I went looking for a home for.
But I've seen a couple on EICRs and may have messed up myself as my photo of one of them doesn't have a CPC connection.
I'm wondering if some sheds are assembling the populated boards themselves and getting it wrong....

nicebutdim said:

Pretty Mouth said:

The board I fitted came with the SPD already installed, with the solid link across the top. I wish I'd taken a closer look at it now, but it was a difficult board change that ran on into the evening (you know those ones where every single thing about it is difficult), so I didn't pay it a great deal of attention .

I might check this with Hager

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Indeed, if a professional, namely an electrician just quotes for a dual RCD board, then when I'm looking at Hager, why would I think hey, i'll buy these too- additional expense. If the quote was for RCBO's i'd ask what they are, the benefits and clearly a lot of the members on here suggest they should be fitted then I would have gone with one.

A bit like surge protection, he specified that on the quote and before I bought the board I sent him the link etc.

On a dual RCD board, is it not good practice to put some lights on one. side, and some sockets on the other? From memory if the RCD on the right trips, then I loose power and lights to the 1st floor, and 2nd floor.

I bought the board as unpopulated, is it possible that I could keep the board, and exchange for RCBO's.

I have space on the Hager board below, are Wiska the only supplier that allow m e to take a circuit or two from the new board and fit to the old board,

I deliberately bought an oversized board, for the reason that I am getting a car charger, and solar and batteries making the board full.

I'm clearly going to employ a different electrician and go for RCBO's - but is having three fuse boards OTT. Perhaps a 6 way board, OR would you upgrade the plastic one, to RCBO's and instead of 6, have 10 circuits.

Thanks for the help. So in short I'm going to ask he tidies the board up, (he refused before, but as i'm not paying the balance it appears he has agreed,) fits protection on the back, (both i've bought), last thing is I want a metal board to become

westward10 said:

When it comes to judging someone #53 says it all and the picture he shows on My Builder probably wasn't something he had done.

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I'm hesitant with this stuff - he gave me the phone number of a job who he had finished, and she said it is all working, she is happy but admitted she doesn't know the ins and outs of electrics. She just said he was a hard worker and that she was happy.

I was also invited on to a job to watch. I regret this now.

I thought having done all this I’d done my due diligence.

LukeD said:

What rewire ??? one or two circuits maybe but as mentioned there is old coded cables showing

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I’ve found out by looking at the other end that a new cable for power and lighting hasn’t been run to the loft.

I don’t really know what to do, I think someone above is suggesting the SPD isn’t fitted properly, - I thought let’s tidy the board up, (you can see his excuse above) and then pay the guy, learn a lesson and move on.

I’m thinking whether I should get an electrical expert to write a report, on the quality of work. Correct me if I’m wrong but if I get an EICR the electrician doing it won’t want to get involved.

Are there any electrical experts that can provide a written report? I.e if it goes to court. I know the board is a mess and that there are old cables where there should specifically be new ones I.e colours but the judge won’t.

I’ve reviewed the quotes, and, I’d like to clarify that this wasn’t the cheapest quote.

Looking at them, none have RCBO’s rather all dual RCD.

Now with those circuits still on old wiring I don’t know what to do. Do i tell him to forget it, do I deduct the price of that from the quote?

I’ve never refused to pay a tradesman and have paid everyone else as arranged or as per the contract and we left on good terms..

I was thinking last night, rather than binning the board, perhaps I could get an electrician to connect the 6 circuits on the plastic board (three either side) and then get a new board with RCBO’s as the main one.

Someone above mentioned fusedbox - would people use this or pay more for a different brand?

Alternatively if an electrician takes my Hager board can they remove the RCD’s and MCB’s and replace with RCBO’s - looking at the board it mentions ‘high integrity’.

Where are you in London.