New rewire and fuse board - views on work.

Debrahim · Jan 7, 2023

Hi,

I’d appreciate views on the fuse board.

B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted at ImgBB

Image B15507-C3-D860-4-B7-C-B670-7-C9332043-AB4 hosted in ImgBB

ibb.co

It’s been completely rewired and I’m unhappy with the quality.

I’ve messaged him about it and described the board as a complete mess, and poor workmanship ship. For entry for the 25mm cables and 16mm tails he used the knock out but didn’t bother using the plastic cable holder - which is a couple of quid.

Also with the cables coming in through the back, there is no plastic or anything so the metal of the board could rub against the metal of the board.

his reply is below

a. - there is a reason why cables shouldn't be perfectly arrange in the fuse box because it could create electromagnetic field resulting in humming sound in the fuse box- you would probably think that's ridiculous ! But it's a fact!

Quite frankly I’m shocked, would you be happy with the work, paying over 4k? And supplying the board all second fix items etc? So basically 5k?

He has also created 5 additional lighting circuits downstairs, I live in a three bed terraced house.

1) for 6 down lights in a 2.5m x 2m room.
2) just the ground hallway light.
3) the lounge dinner, two lights and two wall lights.
4) a porch light and floodlight.
5) under stairs light simply 2 lights.

His reply is that it is is better… but then it’s all on a dual rcd so it doesn’t really help in my opinion.

We agreed the whole of downstairs on a circuit except the hallway on a separate one. (He said that was best practice.

I’ve attached photos and the pieces that I believe should go there. One is too big.

Debrahim · Jan 8, 2023

westward10 said:
Where are you in London.

South west London.

I’m not a cheap skate or whatever, so if someone is prepared to have a look over things even to say, it all appears fine - it’s just a mess then that would be fine.

It’s worrying me about the earth cable to SPD, has it been fitted incorrectly? If I’m honest I can’t recall seeing that yellow wire in the box at all ?

Pretty Mouth · Jan 8, 2023

timhoward said:
I'd certainly be interested to know the outcome. I've only ever fitted one of those and had to add the module myself, and it came with a bit of 6mm CPC that obviously I went looking for a home for.
But I've seen a couple on EICRs and may have messed up myself as my photo of one of them doesn't have a CPC connection.
I'm wondering if some sheds are assembling the populated boards themselves and getting it wrong....

I've emailed hager, I'll update when I have news

nicebutdim · Jan 8, 2023

Welchyboy1 said:
I supply two quotes when quoting a board, one for dual rcd, one for full rcbo, with a strong recommendation to fit the rcbo board and with the continuing drop in rcbo costs this is getting an easier argument to win in most cases

I would say I get about 60% go with the rcbo board( when it’s their own property mostly)

for rentals they always seem to go with the cheapest option, even though I explain it’s potentially a false economy

I earn the same profit to fit either, I would not like to risk losing potentially 40% of the work by refusing to fit a dual rcd board, that’s their choice

I understand your reasoning, but wouldn't be inclined to do the same.

A few years back I'd have considered this a fair approach, but believe the cost of technology is now sufficiently low to dispense with dual RCD options (not to mention regulatory advice). With homes continually being filled with more and more gadgets, along with appliances intended to leak current to earth, I don't consider a dual RCD set up as providing sufficient capacity for the near future. Most homes are unlikely to experience nuisance tripping because of RCDs protecting multiple circuits, but I'd rather not make that assumption on behalf of homeowners. Providing an explanation of benefits is all well and good, but a significant number of homeowners won't grasp the principles behind your recommendation of a slightly more expensive option.

mainline · Jan 8, 2023

Dave OCD said:
Here's a picture of a Fusebox CU with compact RCBOs recently installed by me , this wouldn't cost an awful lot more than the dual RCD Hager board you specified and is good quality. I think how a CU is fitted/connected up gives a fair idea of an electricians attitude to their work and any decent Electrical Tradesperson would produce something like this.

This maybe me being a bit picky but

How long are those tails ? the ones going through those big holes near the twisted rcbos

Debrahim · Jan 8, 2023

Hi guys I’ve included more pics including that of the SPD. (In my non electrical brain it shows an earth coming out from the top of the SPD but there there are the two bit coming out. As I said when we opened the box I never saw an earth wire in the box nor connected to the SPD.

nicebutdim · Jan 8, 2023

Mobisystems said:
I also agree with the opinion , that there is nothing wrong with fitting Dual RCD DB. It's mainly matter of convenience for me, when using RCBO's instead of dual RCD, in case of a fault. At the moment we are finishing residential apartments complex, using exactly the same Hagger DB's. I must have tested 300 of them so far. Regarding the mentioned above DB job, it's cheaply done, but this very common, when a client choses the cheapest offers. Normally, I would use gland for the meter tails and supporting clips. Cables contained in 50x50mm trunking(or bigger) , and using metal bushes/lockrings instead of the knockouts. All gaps/cable entry sealed with fire mastic. And at the end - all connections within DB tightened with torque screwdriver by manufacturer's specifications(nearly nobody is doing that, but yesterday was called out to sort a problem because of loose busbar connection in DB). Also I would leave a spare MCB before the 1st RCD(for security alarm/fire alarm/ disability / garrage DB circuits).

There are many things in the OP's board that a lot of electricians would do differently, but I tried to limit criticism to issues that breached actual regulations and avoid stating what might be considered best practice.

Pretty Mouth · Jan 8, 2023

Debrahim said:
Hi guys I’ve included more pics including that of the SPD. (In my non electrical brain it shows an earth coming out from the top of the SPD but there there are the two bit coming out. As I said when we opened the box I never saw an earth wire in the box nor connected to the SPD.

This is the same as the one I fitted. I think it connects to earth via the steel enclosure and din rail, but I have emailed hager for clarification and will update when I have news

mainline · Jan 8, 2023

nicebutdim said:
The general consensus will be that dual RCD boards should be avoided and I'd fully agree with that.

Not if you only have 2 circuits

Debrahim · Jan 8, 2023

Pretty Mouth said:
This is the same as the one I fitted. I think it connects to earth via the steel enclosure and din rail, but I have emailed hager for clarification and will update when I have news

Hi well like you I had no cpc cable in the box or coming out of it, and from your pic mine looks the same if that is of any help.

Looking into RCBO’s now - is there any reason why the Hager enclosure couldn’t be used ?
This is the exact one Design 10 - 14 Way 100A Dual Split Consumer Unit c/w 2 RCDs (Type A) + SPD | Hager (VML914CUSPD) - https://www.tlc-direct.co.uk/Products/HGVML914CUSPD.html

Debrahim · Jan 8, 2023

nicebutdim said:
There are many things in the OP's board that a lot of electricians would do differently, but I tried to limit criticism to issues that breached actual regulations and avoid stating what might be considered best practice.

Hi, could you please tell me best practice ?

I’ve seen that people install a 100 amp isolator before the board.

Forgive me I don’t want to be rude to anyone, but is it possible he passed after doing one of these short courses, like the 3 week ones, rather than an apprenticeship / or the normal way of college/ training etc.

nicebutdim · Jan 8, 2023

Debrahim said:
Hi, could you please tell me best practice ?

The post I was responding to mentioned several ways in which they'd have approached this board differently and I'd have taken a similar approach, but not doing so isn't a breach of any regulation.

Containment of cables would give a more aesthetically pleasing look to the installation, but sheathed cables such as the twin and earth used in domestic installations does not need to be contained.

The issues to which you can legitimately raise objections have already been covered: Power and lighting should be split across both RCDs, so loosing one bank of circuits will ensure either power or light remains in any given area of the home. Cables (including incoming tails) should be suitably supported and restrained - there are many ways in which this can be done, including the simple cable clip. If there is sufficient space for finger access where tails come in the bottom, then this should be filled. Cables should be protected from metal edges as they come into the board, which can be remedied through the use of grommet strip.

I know not all issues will be covered in the above paragraph, as I'm working from memory of what I read last night, but am trying to draw a clear distinction between how electricians might approach this job and what is actually required from a regulatory perspective.

Edit: An isolator after the meter is very helpful for future work or maintenance, but no regulation mandates this additional means of isolation.

As for training? I couldn't comment - many time served electricians turn out shoddy work and there are also electricians who came to the industry through a short course and go on to turn out exemplary work. Knowledge is very useful, but can be renered pointless if not accompanied by a good work ethic.

Debrahim · Jan 8, 2023

So my research seems to indicate that RCBO's can fit within the board. They are listed as an accessory by TLC.

The board code brings up that is High Intensity - how many RCBO's I can fit, I don't know. A single RCBO from TLC is nearly £30 on its own.
Should I get an electrician to change everything to RCBO (if possible). If not should I get sockets and lights on their own RCBO, (the kitchen is on its own board, so if the new board trips I still have light and power downstairs).

I'm also getting a car charger, and solar, I assume these are both high risk items. So I should spend the extra and also put them on a RCBO on the main Hager Board ?

Or should I spend even more, and get the car charger, and solar, on its own RCBO board, with surge ?

mainline · Jan 8, 2023

Debrahim said:
So my research seems to indicate that RCBO's can fit within the board. They are listed as an accessory by TLC.

The board code brings up that is High Intensity - how many RCBO's I can fit, I don't know. A single RCBO from TLC is nearly £30 on its own.
Should I get an electrician to change everything to RCBO (if possible). If not should I get sockets and lights on their own RCBO, (the kitchen is on its own board, so if the new board trips I still have light and power downstairs).

I'm also getting a car charger, and solar, I assume these are both high risk items. So I should spend the extra and also put them on a RCBO on the main Hager Board ?

Or should I spend even more, and get the car charger, and solar, on its own RCBO board, with surge ?

The best thing to do is get another sparky in (A decent one) and let them plan it for you.

You certainly don't need all those circuits on separate rcbos.

nicebutdim · Jan 8, 2023

mainline said:
The best thing to do is get another sparky in (A decent one) and let them plan it for you.

You certainly don't need all those circuits on separate rcbos.

Also unlikely to gain any benefit from the additional expense of changing to RCBOs and sourcing new busbar. I'd be inclined to leave the current set up in place, unless cumulative earth leakage happens to cause nuisance tripping (of which there have been no reports so far).

nicebutdim · Jan 8, 2023

Debrahim said:
So my research seems to indicate that RCBO's can fit within the board. They are listed as an accessory by TLC.

The board code brings up that is High Intensity - how many RCBO's I can fit, I don't know. A single RCBO from TLC is nearly £30 on its own.
Should I get an electrician to change everything to RCBO (if possible). If not should I get sockets and lights on their own RCBO, (the kitchen is on its own board, so if the new board trips I still have light and power downstairs).

I'm also getting a car charger, and solar, I assume these are both high risk items. So I should spend the extra and also put them on a RCBO on the main Hager Board ?

Or should I spend even more, and get the car charger, and solar, on its own RCBO board, with surge ?

Even pairing down the number of circuits, you're looking at £300+ additional expenditure and for what gain?

EV charge point may present an issue with current installation, but there are a number of ways in which that issue could be overcome.

I'm not telling you not to make this change, but asking you to consider whether or not it's worth spending money on. One benefit would be that any fault to earth causes tripping of a single circuit, but is that really essential to you?

Diddy · Jan 8, 2023

nicebutdim said:
The issues to which you can legitimately raise objections have already been covered: Power and lighting should be split across both RCDs, so loosing one bank of circuits will ensure either power or light remains in any given area of the home. Cables (including incoming tails) should be suitably supported and restrained - there are many ways in which this can be done, including the simple cable clip. If there is sufficient space for finger access where tails come in the bottom, then this should be filled. Cables should be protected from metal edges as they come into the board, which can be remedied through the use of grommet strip.

The above are the ONLY issues that you could pull the original electrician on. As well as the bit of the circuit that has not been rewired. Be advised that you must give the original electrician the opportunity to fix those issues before going down the withholding payment or part payment route.
These are also the only things that you need rectified to make the installation totally compliant and safe for continued use. So as far as safety is concerned get the above fixed and you are fine to leave everything as it is.

You do not need a new board - It would just have been "better" if you had at least been given the option of an RCBO setup, But that ship has sailed as it were. There is zero recourse on the people who quoted for you when you simply asked for a fuse board upgrade or indeed if it was part of other works for not offering the RCBO option....It's just that most of us on here find it strange due to the fact that the cost difference these days is minimal and it is "best practice" but not really laid out in black and white in the regulations.

I

Dave OCD · Jan 8, 2023

Mobisystems said:
Hi, just curious, are your Meter tails burried in the wall?

They go straight through into the external meter box.

Dave OCD · Jan 8, 2023

mainline said:
This maybe me being a bit picky but

How long are those tails ? the ones going through those big holes near the twisted rcbos

Less than a metre, they go straight through to DP isolator in the external meter box. Considering the testing was completed at 3pm and the board install was complete including the labelling by 4.45pm I'd say it's not bad at all. Let's see a pic of one of your boards now ?

mainline · Jan 8, 2023

Dave OCD said:
Less than a metre, they go straight through to DP isolator in the external meter box. Considering the testing was completed at 3pm and the board install was complete including the labelling by 4.45pm I'd say it's not bad at all. Let's see a pic of one of your boards now ?

I did mean to go back and finish this one, but the fella wouldn't let me back in.

[ElectriciansForums.net] New rewire and fuse board - views on work.

Debrahim · Jan 9, 2023

nicebutdim said:
nicebutdim said:

Also unlikely to gain any benefit from the additional expense of changing to RCBOs and sourcing new busbar. I'd be inclined to leave the current set up in place, unless cumulative earth leakage happens to cause nuisance tripping (of which there have been no reports so far).

Click to expand...

I have been advised that a dual RCD board is bad, and that I should have RCBO's - you guys are the experts, if its a matter of safety, i'm happy to swap.

There has been no tripping. I allowed extra space for the solar/car charger, but thought,

Diddy said:
The above are the ONLY issues that you could pull the original electrician on. As well as the bit of the circuit that has not been rewired. Be advised that you must give the original electrician the opportunity to fix those issues before going down the withholding payment or part payment route.
These are also the only things that you need rectified to make the installation totally compliant and safe for continued use. So as far as safety is concerned get the above fixed and you are fine to leave everything as it is.

You do not need a new board - It would just have been "better" if you had at least been given the option of an RCBO setup, But that ship has sailed as it were. There is zero recourse on the people who quoted for you when you simply asked for a fuse board upgrade or indeed if it was part of other works for not offering the RCBO option....It's just that most of us on here find it strange due to the fact that the cost difference these days is minimal and it is "best practice" but not really laid out in black and white in the regulations.

I

Thank you, however the law says that the work must be carried out with skill and care. The test is whether a ‘reasonably competent member of the profession’ would leave it like that.

Everyone here said it’s sloppy and poor. If you boards look like this then I’d be interested to see ?

He didn’t use a torc screwdriver nor did he do any testing. I know as I was there.

The tails inside are just free floating and hanging - no clip to hold them in place, is that legal?

The cables come through the back via the metal, there is no grommet or plastic to protect the cables against the sharp metal edge again is that legal ?

The socket has a massive hole there, my finger could easily fit in there, is that legal ?

The

Debrahim · Jan 9, 2023

Diddy said:
The above are the ONLY issues that you could pull the original electrician on. As well as the bit of the circuit that has not been rewired. Be advised that you must give the original electrician the opportunity to fix those issues before going down the withholding payment or part payment route.
These are also the only things that you need rectified to make the installation totally compliant and safe for continued use. So as far as safety is concerned get the above fixed and you are fine to leave everything as it is.

You do not need a new board - It would just have been "better" if you had at least been given the option of an RCBO setup, But that ship has sailed as it were. There is zero recourse on the people who quoted for you when you simply asked for a fuse board upgrade or indeed if it was part of other works for not offering the RCBO option....It's just that most of us on here find it strange due to the fact that the cost difference these days is minimal and it is "best practice" but not really laid out in black and white in the regulations.

I

I’ve given him the option to fix, he has refused. You will see his excuse in the first page. Apparently a nicely wired consumer board causes a hum and an electronic field. Lol. Now I’ve refused to pay it looks like he will come and do it, and we will go from there.

I wonder why no one quoted for a RCBO, including him. Here everyone says they quote for full rcbo.

Safety comes, so from people saying it should be a RCBO now I will change it, people are saying it’s unnecessary,

Out of interest is a car charger and solar more likely to trigger the RCD ? For £100 + labour I can put them in the board on RCBO’s.

Other than wiskas product is there a way to extend the cables in a fuse board ?

Cheers.

Diddy · Jan 9, 2023

Debrahim said:
Safety comes, so from people saying it should be a RCBO now I will change it, people are saying it’s unnecessary,

Well cheers for ignoring my and others very clear advice. that advice extends to untidy fuse boards too. there is NO obligation nor regulation which states that work should be neat and tidy. The advice was RCBO's are a "nice to have" as opposed to a must have so again you will be paying twice as you have zero recourse to the installation of the board as it currently stands aside from the gaps where the tails come in.
I don't mean to sound confrontational but I/we have essentially told you where you stand legally and we have also told you that although not "ideal" the use of a dual RCD board with mcb's is NOT against ANY regulations.

I do wish you well in your endeavours. I will leave it to others to answer any further questions as im not a fan of writing out a load of words for them to be ignored. Personally I and a few others are just trying to save you cash while ensuring the installation is at least safe.

buzzlightyear · Jan 9, 2023

If he has refused then your option is to get a independent spark in to write you a report of his findings. Has we give out advice not hear say, if he takes you to court no doubt he will then you will have evidence against him.send him all copy's of the findings ask the indpendant spark to quote regulation numbers and bobs your uncle antie.
Which court I'm in to day old Bailey.

baldelectrician · Jan 9, 2023

I am in the process of quoting a new consumer unit where the client will need a larger consumer unit

She is going for a dual RCD with additional RCBO's for, I will be installing a Hager VML91620CUSPD
She is also getting PV and probably battery storage - this is the reason for the larger unit

Hager also do a change over switch to allow the use of a seperate generator / inverter

This has dual RCD's, and is configurable as well. I still install dual RCD units as I prefer Hager but add 2-3 RCBO's as well

I would suggest you put the lower lights, lower sockets and kitchen sockets on RCBO's

If you had the larger consumer unit (VML90610CUSPD / VML91014CUSPD / VML91620CUSPD) you could remove the lower consumer unit and have all stuff on the same consumer unit

Debrahim · Jan 9, 2023

Diddy said:
Well cheers for ignoring my and others very clear advice. that advice extends to untidy fuse boards too. there is NO obligation nor regulation which states that work should be neat and tidy. The advice was RCBO's are a "nice to have" as opposed to a must have so again you will be paying twice as you have zero recourse to the installation of the board as it currently stands aside from the gaps where the tails come in.
I don't mean to sound confrontational but I/we have essentially told you where you stand legally and we have also told you that although not "ideal" the use of a dual RCD board with mcb's is NOT against ANY regulations.

I do wish you well in your endeavours. I will leave it to others to answer any further questions as im not a fan of writing out a load of words for them to be ignored. Personally I and a few others are just trying to save you cash while ensuring the installation is at least safe.

Thanks Diddy but as you will see others have a different view - to the extent some don’t fit them.

Out of interest is this how you leave them ? Would you put your name to it ?