3 phase domestic supply

[John-SJW]

I watched this vid on Youtube. Interesting. They have 3 phase supplies. Does anyone know the cost of upgrading from a single to a 3 phase domestic supply?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uI7wxNtrorQ&lc=UgyPTN2d89tBByfm4Dx4AaABAg.9CrcYe7x50b9CsC6DnPJKw

 

[Zerax]

So yeah, EVs are great for those people who own houses with driveways.

Yes... agreed. However, it's not as simple as that. There's a growing number of work based charging points for example... and yes before you scream at me... I know that doesn't help everyone, particularly people with no fixed place of work.

Then there's the technology that's improving all the time. I think we're getting to the point where you can almost survive without a home charger... and yes yes yes.... I know it's not about 'getting by' or 'struggling' to find somewhere to recharge... but it's heading in the right direction.

I see there are now some cities who are installing charging points in lamp posts... Portsmouth is one I think. So you're situation where you can't park in the communal area, but on the street... in a few years time, you might have to just be near a lamp post.

 

[nicebutdim]

It looks like another case of battery-to-battery transfer to fast-charge one or more battery-powered vehicles or trains. Charge the container overnight then deliver it to a station for the day. Sounds like an interim solution.

Then there's the technology that's improving all the time. I think we're getting to the point where you can almost survive without a home charger... and yes yes yes.... I know it's not about 'getting by' or 'struggling' to find somewhere to recharge... but it's heading in the right direction.

I see there are now some cities who are installing charging points in lamp posts... Portsmouth is one I think. So you're situation where you can't park in the communal area, but on the street... in a few years time, you might have to just be near a lamp post.

The situation is certainly becoming brighter for prospective EV owners and there will undoubtedly be a significant increase in the number on our roads in the near future.

The point I've been trying to make is that EVs are not without their faults and rely upon technological advances happening at a significant pace. In short, we're not quite on the cusp of an EV utopia as described in some posts on this thread.

 

[John-SJW]

Look at this. Worth watching:

3 phase domestic supply | on ElectriciansForums

Find 3 phase domestic supply Advice and Help. How-to 3 phase domestic supply in the Domestic Electrician Forum advice boards on ElectriciansForums.net Est.2006 | Free Electrical Advice Forum. 3 phase domestic supply on ElectriciansForums.net Electrical Advice Forum.

www.electriciansforums.net

Many countries have put a time on the discontinuing of fossil fuel burning in cars, like in 10 years. This was today:

Petrol and diesel cars could be banned by 2030

PETROL and diesel cars could be banned within a decade as government ministers consider bringing forward the 2035 ban to revolutionise Britain's roads sooner.

www.express.co.uk

It will probably be well before that as the market kicks in.

 

[UNG]

Your point is that EVs will cost more in the long run to maintain. That is false, based on myth and propaganda:

• EVs do not not needed servicing;
• They have about 14 moving parts, promising to have a life spans far, far greater than ICE cars;
• The batteries are dropping like lead balloons in price. (Did you look at Tong Seba's vid? Please do);

So EV's will be reliant on the MOT to dictate it's servicing schedule so that is 3 years with no servicing before it's first MOT. I found out recently that the engines in hybrid vehicles don't have the emissions checked at an MOT

Don't know where you found the 14 moving parts fact there is probably that number if not more in the steering alone

The new solid state Toyota battery:

• The prototype cells can fully charge in 15 minutes;
• Capacity loss of just 10% over 30 years;
• Millions of recharges before any degradation;
• Fully recharged in less than 15 minutes;
• Half the size and weight of existing batteries for the same storage;
• The price will be roughly the same as current batteries - in effect half the price.

Others are also working on solid state batteries.

Capacity loss of 10% over 30 years is this real world testing
1 million 15 minute charges takes 28.5 years not taking into account the discharge time
So millions of charges before any degradation is pushing the truth

To make a point it is best to do some research, then some analysis. I have noticed these appalling cars you are fond of, which waste 80% of the energy in the tank, you have not mentioned the poison they pour out the tailpipes.

Best to look at and understand the videos I posted, all based on factual research. It is clear you never looked at them.

I do not have an opinion, I am concluding after research on the subject and analysis. Very different.

You clearly do have an opinion that may be driven by your location, an EV may not suit everybody especially in remote locations but a lot of research does not take that into account
It is all very well posting videos but they can be tainted by the authors own views

EVs are approaching the price of ICE cars. Once parity, then they will just take off. Look at the Tony Seba video.

I have two EV chargers on the pavement on my road. Fast chargers are everywhere. Shell are having one fast charger at every petrol station, with a schedule in place to phase out petrol pumps, as EVs take over. One station in London is now to be all EV charging.

I agree, cars are a pain. But! The advances in battery technology will cascade to homes. We will all see the changes if not in EVs, because we may not own one.

You say fast chargers are everywhere what do you deem to be a fast charger, most of the public charging points that I know off locally to me are 3 or 7 kw

Wise up. When EVs start to take over the chargers will be everywhere. They will be installed very quickly. Did you look at the Tony Seba video? The mass take up of ICE cars in 10 years? Unless you look at the vid it is best not comment on EVs.

I saw a report a little while ago that suggested we needed to be installing 4000 charging points per day for the next 10 years to meet the anticipated demand
With regard to Tony Seba doing some research into his background he seems to be using social media and working as an "influencer" to possibly promote businesses or products that he may have some interest in. I think it is narrow minded of you to suggest others do not comment on EV's if you haven't looked at his video

I can say the same about you. I have taken the bother to find out, you appear not to have done. I have an old Toyota.
The infrastructure is here, it is called the grid. Electricity is everywhere, even in the sticks. EV chargers on drives are easily fitted. Fast chargers are easily fitted, as Shell are doing, who are to phase out all petrol stations. No kidding.

The charging infrastructure is being fitted by councils, and mainly private companies, all over the UK.

You have taken the time to look at a number of videos without looking into the background of those promoting the technology
Electricity is everywhere is really an uninformed throw away comment, without the cable capacity to deliver the load the fact electricity is available is meaningless
To state that EV chargers on drives are easily fitted means not all the housing stock can have an EV point fitted. Depending on what your definition of a fast charger is, the biggest hurdle to overcome is the supply needed for one, a 22Kw charger is probably at the lower end of fast charging and may just be within the capability of the normal domestic supply providing only a few houses in the street have them after that it's 50Kw upwards to 350Kw with the higher capacities only available to vehicles with 900v batteries, to say easily fitted is open to debate a 350Kw charger needs a 260A 3 phase supply plus a further 40A 3 phase supply for the cooling plant.
Is the infrastructure really here to carry all that additional load that you or your videos are forecasting quite a few DNO engineers would beg to differ around my area

It took 10 years to move from horses to petrol cars. That is abandoning of the:

• The breeding of the horses;
• Disposing of dead horses;
• The stables;
• The carts;
• The buggies;
• The maintenance of the carts and buggies;
• The fodder;
• The clearing of the tons of horse manure in the streets each day;
  The disposal of the horse manure;
• etc;

Then the adoption of the ICE car, with:

1. The factories set up;
2. The maintenance of the cars with garages;
3. The training of the mechanics;
4. the distribution of petrol - initially petrol was sold in chemists;
5. The construction of the roads;

The introduction of the ICE car produced many huge industries:

• Car manufacture;
• Car maintenance;
• Oil industry;
• Rubber industry;
• Road construction industry.

All in 10 years. We are half way to that point in EVs.

Until the EV can do everything an ICE vehicle does with the same convenience it will be a hard slog to sell the concept, can it happen in 10 years remains to be seen

Look back on the thread you will see a post by me linked to Fully Charged who interview a top man at National Grid. They say they do not need any more power generation to cope with the coming EVs, etc. The secret is storage of electricity, or energy to make it. Look at it, very interesting. Do not reply until you have looked at it.

The top man at National Grid is more than likely a bean counter with no concept of delivering what is generated to the point of utilisation. It has to be understood that a lot of the local DNO infrastructure certainly in my area was installed 70 - 90 years ago so is grossly undersized in parts add to this that the DNO's diversity allows something like 3 - 5Kw per property depending on whether there is a gas supply really throws into doubt the local networks ability to cope with EV charging.
With regard to power generation AFAIK we still import electricity from France and to fill in the peaks in demand we use pumped storage generation that uses off peak generated electricity to pump the water back up the mountain so will overnight EV charging impact on this due to reducing the amount of off peak electricity available and thus altering the current generation profile

None of this takes into account most households having 2 or more vehicles which if EV's become the norm all will possibly need charging at some point overnight

 

[Zerax]

Wonder if this Tony Seba can let me know the lottery numbers for next weekend too.

I can’t think of even 1 EV charger in a public place within 5 miles of my house. Probably 100k people live in that area.

I'm actually surprised how many there are... although the new problem is that often they're offline and just won't work ! I think most Lidl stores have them now ?

 

[John-SJW]

The point I've been trying to make is that EVs are not without their faults and rely upon technological advances happening at a significant pace. In short, we're not quite on the cusp of an EV utopia as described in some posts on this thread.

Many EVs have over the magic 200 miles range. Some 330. So range anxiety is not a problem as it was. New battery technology will make that even better. I mentioned Tesla's new battery of a million charges, with only 10% degradation in 30 years. This is now. The price of EVs is dropping like a stone. Once they are at parity with petrol cars the end with be quick for the ICE car. We are at the tipping point for EVs.

Yes, every lamp post can be a charger. Electricity is everywhere. Stuck with a flat battery? Take a small get you home charge from a passing car. His car bills yours automatically - in and out of each account..
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UNG, I see you are a doom and gloom merchant, ignoring the fact that EVs are taking off like wildfire.

It looks like you never looked at the Seba video then.

HMG are looking like setting 10 years to stop selling fossil fuelled cars.

 

[Zerax]

You can't seriously expect PV to take up this amount of slack in the UK, where we often don't see direct sunlight for days at a time.

For the UK, PV is not as 'likely' as wind is... we're simply too far north to make them economically viable with the existing cost of them compared to wind generation.

The big part of the jigsaw puzzle of balancing clean energy supply with demand is the storage of electricity. Lots of solutions out there right now, but the economics don't stack up yet.

We have to consider that time on Christmas Day, when we all want to put the turkey in the oven, but there's no sunshine and not a breath of wind ! Or later on that day at the start of the ad-break in Coronation Street when we all put the kettle on...

 

[John-SJW]

I'm actually surprised how many there are... although the new problem is that often they're offline and just won't work ! I think most Lidl stores have them now ?

ASDA have a lot of chargers. The aim is to have a charger at every parking bay. Shop and get 10 miles free at the same time.
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For the UK, PV is not as 'likely' as wind is... we're simply too far north to make them economically viable with the existing cost of them compared to wind generation.

The big part of the jigsaw puzzle of balancing clean energy supply with demand is the storage of electricity. Lots of solutions out there right now, but the economics don't stack up yet.

There is a solar farm on the English-Welsh border at Deeside. The world's first solar school is just outside Liverpool - 1961. Solar PV panels are dropping in price like stones - see the Seba vid. It will be as cheap to have solar tiles as ordinary tiles. All roofs are solar roofs as the sun shines on them all. The economics clearly stack up looking at all the panels on top of commercial buildings.

We have to consider that time on Christmas Day, when we all want to put the turkey in the oven, but there's no sunshine and not a breath of wind ! Or later on that day at the start of the ad-break in Coronation Street when we all put the kettle on...

Look at the link to the National Grid man. That solves your misgivings.

 

[UNG]

The same we do now. Go to a charging station. They are everywhere. The south east has more EV charging points that petrol stations.

You have fallen for your own hype
How many petrol pumps are there in the south west, really skews the argument using charging points V's petrol stations

National Grid say they can cope. They will not upgrade the distribution network unless it needs it.

The DNO's are not a part of National Grid they are 6 separate companies delivering the local network infrastructure in the 14 licenced distribution areas around the country

 

[John-SJW]

quite a few DNO engineers would beg to differ around my area

They had better pull their fingers out. They still have ten years to do it though.
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How many petrol pumps are there in the south west, really

I gave the links. Look at them. The UK has more charging points than petrol stations. That is excluding home, store and work chargers.

 

[mattg4321]

It’s hard to not be sceptical of someone’s views who is so fanatical about something for no obvious reason.

Been on any marches this weekend?

 

[John-SJW]

It’s hard to not be sceptical of someone’s views who is so fanatical about something for no obvious reason.

Been on any marches this weekend?

I go by facts and analysis. I gave them with supporting links. I leave opinions to drunks in pubs, as entertaining as they are.

 

[UNG]

Many EVs have over the magic 200 miles range. Some 330. So range anxiety is not a problem as it was.

Until manufacturers start delivering real world figures for a rainy winters day at -5°C the skepticism will prevail as to the viability of the EV

New battery technology will make that even better. I mentioned Tesla's new battery of a million charges, with only 10% degradation in 30 years. This is now.

That's strange, earlier you said

The new solid state Toyota battery:

• The prototype cells can fully charge in 15 minutes;
• Capacity loss of just 10% over 30 years;
• Millions of recharges before any degradation;
• Fully recharged in less than 15 minutes;
• Half the size and weight of existing batteries for the same storage;
• The price will be roughly the same as current batteries - in effect half the price.

Others are also working on solid state batteries.

The price of EVs is dropping like a stone. Once they are at parity with petrol cars the end with be quick for the ICE car. We are at the tipping point for EVs.

Given the lifespan of a car could be 15 - 20 years the ICE could be around for longer than you think

Yes, every lamp post can be a charger. Electricity is everywhere. Stuck with a flat battery? Take a small get you home charge from a passing car. His car bills yours automatically - in and out of each account..

Are we going to install lamp posts closer together to facilitate EV charging I doubt it
A get you home charge from a passing car who may have limited battery life isn't really going to happen plus there is the added inconvenience for the driver who stops

UNG, I see you are a doom and gloom merchant, ignoring the fact that EVs are taking off like wildfire.

It looks like you never looked at the Seba video then.

HMG are looking like setting 10 years to stop selling fossil fuelled cars.

No doom and gloom just look deeper into and have a better understanding of the realities of the technology than you and your social media influencer Seba do

Stopping selling fossil fueled cars is one thing stopping there use is another


Just to add some doom and gloom
There are a lot of issues yet to be addressed regarding EV's not least a multi EV accident where a fire occurs, talking to some firefighters a while ago and they said the only thing they can do is watch it burn for several days due to the voltages involved, they fully expect road closures to last days if there is an EV fire as it would likely be a smouldering reigniting fire that without breaking the battery apart would be difficult to put out and would be very dangerous for those trying

 

[plugsandsparks]

Apparently you can tow some EVs to charge them up, wonder if the AA will offer this as a get you home service, lol

TBH home charging is fantasy island, not going to happen, impossible. We cannot even get broadband at decent speeds because of the infrastructure. Local LV is the same,

The only way forward is Supercharging parked up under a Pylon...........

 

[nicebutdim]

There are a lot of issues yet to be addressed regarding EV's not least a multi EV accident where a fire occurs, talking to some firefighters a while ago and they said the only thing they can do is watch it burn for several days due to the voltages involved, they fully expect road closures to last days if there is an EV fire as it would likely be a smouldering reigniting fire that without breaking the battery apart would be difficult to put out and would be very dangerous for those trying

A lot of people reading this thread will be aware of the energy expended by a single lithium-ion cell in the event of thermal runaway caused by short circuit, heat or other damage. I'm not sure if any of us could really imagine the consequences of an entire EV battery pack meeting such a fate.

More recent developments in lithium battery technology have seen the flames taken out of this equation, but that does not resolve the huge volumes of extremely hot gases that vent from cells in a fraction of a second.

Possibly this will be partially resolved by future advances in battery technology, but it would be difficult to resolve entirely given the huge amount of energy harnessed in such battery packs.