consumer units

[trickyb]

Hi all realy silly question maybe. Doing consumer change on old consumer 3036 type! now if all test,s out right is it our job to fit rcd protected mcb,s or rcbo,s or indeed any rcd protection at all ! or is it down to what the customer wants to pay ? what are the rules on this? thanks ian

 

[Hawk81]

I do think that I have already suggested how this could be achieved.
However, install the new CU with RCBOs for any bathroom circuits MCBs for the rest, and make a note of the lack of RCD protection for sockets and cables in the section provided in the certificate for comments on the existing installation.

This is WRONG and terrible advice ignor this!!!! How can it be noted as part of the existing installation when he has changed the cu?? It is his duty after changing the cu to bring it up to the regs. Socket outlets must be rcd protected page 21 of the OSG. spinlondon you are in a world of your own and just being twisted now. Catch yourself on.

 

[Hawk81]

Hawk81. Sockets circuits do not require RCD protection, it is the sockets themselves that require RCD protection.
Yes if the cables are buried as they leave the CU, then they will require the RCD protection to be in the CU.
However where cables are not buried as they leave the CU as is the case in many installations, then RCD protection does not have to be in the CU.
Yes the cheapest option if you are providing RCD protection is to place the RCD in the CU.
My point is: If you change a CU, you are not required by BS7671 to provide RCD protection if that protection can be placed somewhere other than the CU.
I am suggesting that you could comment on the lack of RCD protection in the section on the certificate for comments on the existing installation.

As i said when doing a board change you can not be sure that the cables are installed in a way to meet the regs as to not require rcd protection. This must mean as soon as the cables are no longer insight then they need rcd protection. which in most cases they leave they board and go into a cieling ect. so i stand by my original statment.

 

[trickyb]

well said m8

 

[gamblor6]

this is just silly. spin your heads up your bum. the point is the cables need additional protection too not just the outlet.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

This is WRONG and terrible advice ignor this!!!! How can it be noted as part of the existing installation when he has changed the cu?? It is his duty after changing the cu to bring it up to the regs. Socket outlets must be rcd protected page 21 of the OSG. spinlondon you are in a world of your own and just being twisted now. Catch yourself on.

Because unless he has installed the sockets, they are part of the existing installation.
Which Regulation makes it his duty bring the existing installation up to the Regs?
If it is his duty to do such, why is there a section for comments on the existing installation and why is there Regulation 633.2 which requires any defects found, so far as is reasonably practicicable, in the existing installation to be recorded on the EIC or MWC?
The OSG is a guide, it is not BS7671 which are the Regulations that are required to be met.
Get a grip.

 

[gamblor6]

senior member too lol

 

[BillyTheSparks]

But Spin when you change the cu, you are testing the installation as if it were yours and yes note down any deviations from the regs. But at the same time you wouldn't install a cu as you suggest in a new build unless you have met the regs and part p.

But if you haven't installed you don't know if the cables to the switches and sockets etc do comply and so would you not want to cover yourself by installing as everyone else on this thread???

 

[Hawk81]

Because unless he has installed the sockets, they are part of the existing installation.
Which Regulation makes it his duty bring the existing installation up to the Regs?
If it is his duty to do such, why is there a section for comments on the existing installation and why is there Regulation 633.2 which requires any defects found, so far as is reasonably practicicable, in the existing installation to be recorded on the EIC or MWC?
The OSG is a guide, it is not BS7671 which are the Regulations that are required to be met.
Get a grip.

My copy ot the OSG says BS7671 on it. It also says Requirements for electrical installatins. maybe you have a different OSG to me???

 

[Deleted member 26818]

As i said when doing a board change you can not be sure that the cables are installed in a way to meet the regs as to not require rcd protection. This must mean as soon as the cables are no longer insight then they need rcd protection. which in most cases they leave they board and go into a cieling ect. so i stand by my original statment.

If you don't know whether the cables don't need RCD protection, then conversly you don't know that they do.
If you haven't installed the cables, they are not your responsibility, and there is no requirement in the Regulations for you to update the existing installation.

To refuse to improve the safety of an installation because the customer is unwilling to have or cannot afford RCD protection is to my mind hypocritical.
How would you feel if you went to get a tyre changed on your car, abd the mechanic refused to change it because your brakes are knackered. He will only change the tyre if you let him fix the brakes.

 

[ian1511]

my osg also states bs7671,after reading all posts i think its either the right way or spinlondon way,think i know what most ppl will choose.obviously dizzy an confused from spinning

 

[j.mawer]

I understand what you are saying spin (which does not mean I agree) but why do you keep saying that you need an RCD for the bathroom? Surely using your socket theory if its not there already ... just note it. Where do you draw the line and why?

 

[BillyTheSparks]

I understand what you are saying spin (which does not mean I agree) but why do you keep saying that you need an RCD for the bathroom? Surely using your socket theory if its not there already ... just note it. Where do you draw the line and why?

I'm in the same boat as you j.mawer.

 

[Hawk81]

If you don't know whether the cables don't need RCD protection, then conversly you don't know that they do.
If you haven't installed the cables, they are not your responsibility, and there is no requirement in the Regulations for you to update the existing installation.

To refuse to improve the safety of an installation because the customer is unwilling to have or cannot afford RCD protection is to my mind hypocritical.
How would you feel if you went to get a tyre changed on your car, abd the mechanic refused to change it because your brakes are knackered. He will only change the tyre if you let him fix the brakes.

By not fitting an rcd how much have you really improved the safety of the installion? In my opinion if a mechanic sees a cars brakes are knackered then he should not let the car on the road.

 

[kmcgold]

I would bring the Consumer unit up to the 17th standard
pir first all code 1 and earthing done before change
domestic install so all sockets rcd & special locations that need
a rcd .

 

[Deleted member 26818]

My copy ot the OSG says BS7671 on it. It also says Requirements for electrical installatins. maybe you have a different OSG to me???

I suggets you read the preface. Especially the part which goes:
"However, this guide does not ensure compliance with BS7671. It is a simple guide to the requirements of BS7671, and electricians and electrical installers should always consult BS7671 to satisfy themselves of compliance."
Back to page 21, the part which states that RCDs are required for socket-outlet circuits in domestic and similar installations has in blue the Regulation that supposedly requires this. 411.3.3.
I suggest you read this Regulation, and you will note, that not only are RCDs not required for all socket-outlets in domestic and similar installations, but that there is no reference what so ever to the circuit being RCD protected.