Glad to see the domestic work is booming in the midlands

[Amp David]

Just had a news letter from My Local Electrician and saw the article in it.

Plug in to success with the UK


Paragraph 6, :38:

 

[trev]

We have considered starting an e petition to parliament re licencing of electricians, would there be support for that if we set it up?

Carl Bennett
MD Trade Skills 4U

I believe that there would be support for such a move as other countrys operate similar systems and they appear to work perfectly well, the question is though would the government take any notice of it and act accordingly? My guess is no because they have been told that the existing legislation is robust and fit for purpose, the fact that they have been told this by organisations with a vested interest is neither here nor there though.
You mention in your post that anyone can walk into a wholesalers and leave with any item of electrical equipment they see fit, while this is true I feel it should also be pointed out that I can open a Sunday paper, whip out my debit card and order everything I need to install a central heating system anywhere I please. I can also visit Halfords and buy car parts, any builders merchants and buy roofing joists etc etc etc, all with no questions asked.
Legislation forcing people buying electrical items to produce a JIB/scheme membership card would result in hundreds, possibly thousands more people being put out of work which is why it will not happen.

 

[oldtimer]

Thanks for getting back Carl and although you never addressed our or my concerns about this thread I understand where you are coming from and yes you are trying to protect your business and as I have said you have a role to play and you fill it so no probs their then but my concern is that when sales takes over all forms of restraint goes ot the window so to speak and the article that started this post ticked all of the description that says this is pure spin and hype.

Now I can totally agree with you as there is no legal requirement for electricians to be licenced and because of that we are witnessing an industry that is in my view is out of control with regards to Scheme members and companies like yours who should be the gatekeepers of the industry are willing to badge and qualify anyone who can pay now you are thinking thats a bit unfair well my advise would be read some of the mails we get ie I have got my C&Gs I did my 5 week course with XXXX I have recently registered with XXXXX
can someone remind me on how to test for Ze.

Again easy for me to say but in another post I lost a job because I would not connect a class I fitting to a lighting circuit with no cpc in this case I acted as a gatekeeper but I dont see companies like yours or Scheme providors saying the same thing because you are sales driven well that ok then.

As for the comment "Moans are irrelevant" are uncalled for why because we are not here to take an ego for a run far from it we do want higher standards and I have costantly stated that electricians should be licenced and Scheme providors and companies like yours should stick to supplying cost effective training but sadly you have too much say with the government with regards to the way ahead for the country.

Yes I would also agree that Joe Bloggs can walk in to a DIY shed and buy what he likes and I would also point out that under the European Free Trade act you are not legally required to join a Scheme. The only thing that will sort this mess out is when a Scheme provider is taken to to court for negligence or conflict of interests. Yes they and you want to grow and expand your businesses but not in the sales driven frenzy that we see so do me a favour read that article again and if you honestly feel that it was fair and balanced then in my view as they say up here your eyes are greedier than your belly and remember thats how the banks collapsed .

 

[ipf]

Hi All,

The reason we originally got involved in this thread was because our integrity and the validity of this case study was questioned. To get drawn into a debate about long and short courses is pointless because in our view people taking training are always to be supported by doing the right thing, but as a specialist electrical training provider we will always deliver the courses that current legislation and the customer demands, we just train people in currently available qualifications, we don't decide who can work in the industry.

In fact – Let’s be frank, the electrical installation industry is in practice unregulated as anyone can do anything, anywhere. As long as there is no requirement for a licence to practice as an electrician or competent installer it will continue to be the case; a completely untrained unqualified person of any age can go into a DIY store or any electrical wholesalers and buy anything, consumer units, power showers the lot and go and fit it anywhere, flying under the radar of the Part P regs which are let’s face it, poorly policed.

Our view is that people who join the industry, get qualified, get trained, get registered, get insurance, pay taxes are the good guys. You cannot conceivably stop the many thousands of associated trades from installing electrics, literally tens of thousands of small businesses would go bust if you did. The Aircon engineer or conservatory builder or pool engineer will never undertake a full 3 year apprenticeship and in any case only 5% of electrical contractors have the ability to take on apprentices, so who would they do their NVQ with? We train these types of small business people and are proud to support them, as we do existing electrical contractors. The greater majority of people who stand in the wholesalers queues everyday are neither properly trained nor qualified in any way. Its our view and we lobby those decision makers on your behalf, that anyone installing electrics should be legally required to be at least registered competent, until then, any discussions on forums though understandable are merely moans and irrelevant.

Why don’t you try and positively contribute to change things?

We have considered starting an e petition to parliament re licencing of electricians, would there be support for that if we set it up?

Carl Bennett
MD Trade Skills 4U

A lot of good points Carl. A lot of good points covered by OT and Trev, too.

I agree that you don't decide who can work in the industry but, to some extent, intentionally or not, you lull people into believing that they can. Whilst upgrading current tradesmen to the required standard is, to an extent, commendable, is duping others into thinking they are 'fully qualified' a good way of making a living? Fair to you with the 'current regulation'.
You talk about 'moans and irrelevant', who shouldn't complain with some of the situations that we come across. More danger stems from the overconfident who think they know what they're doing, whether they be qualified or DIYers.

I appreciate, looking at your website, that you are not in the 'guarateed £30k brigade', but it doesn't alter the facts regarding those starting from scratch.

I ask once more of your standing and qualification in the electrical industry...?

 

[Silly Sausage]

I ask once more of your standing and qualification in the electrical industry...?

A quick google search reveals...

Carl Bennett
Owner, Tradeskills4U
Redhill, United Kingdom | Electrical/Electronic Manufacturing
Current: CEO at Tradeskills4U Ltd
Past: Specialist Firearms Officer SO19 Dept ( now CO19 ) at Metropolitan Police
Summary: A Renewable Skills and Electrical Training Organisation.


Carl Bennett profiles | LinkedIn

scroll down to see the above!


I wonder if it is one and the same person?!

 

[oldtimer]

well if it is then we are right to be concerned about this article and the sales mentality of this company.

PS the silence is deafining

 

[oldtimer]

Forgive me here if I am being cynical Carl I have been an electrician for 33 years and I would like to start a small arms training school supplying firearm police officers my thinking is to get signed up with all the relevant organisations and get people qualified in toot sweet time because nobody has bothered to licence the way we do things in this country.

Or do you think I am being a bit Gun Hoe here

 

[imago]

To be fair though, why would he (Carl Bennett) need any qualificatrions or standing within this or any other industry? Colleges and apprenticeships are the often quoted mantra on this forum, but does the principle, deputy principle, or funding bodies of any college need a qualification in a trade? Horses for courses (excuse the pun) IMHO.

 

[Silly Sausage]

True.
This guy seems fairly experienced!
Andrew Hay-Ellis - United Kingdom | LinkedIn

 

[Tradeskills4u]

Guys and Girls, my experience is in training and business, my SO19 career is most definitely relevant for the education industry as I also had a role in the training of Specialist Firearms Officers and therefore relevant particularly as SO19 is one of the world's finest firearms departments. My staff are both experienced and fully qualified in the electrical industry, we have a spread of electrical contractors now turned instructors and theoretical college tutors. Our service is second to none just check out our review pages where we show warts and all feedback from of each course.

Tradeskills4U has a high profile in the UK which is why there is always discussion about us, but we actually deliver the same range of courses as any college in the UK including the industry bodies.

I don’t want to get into a bun fight about entry into the industry as that is not our role, we teach, that’s all we do, but what I will say is that it certainly needs an overhaul. At the moment there are so many differing sectors and roles that install electrics in some fashion that a one size fits all system is not fit for purpose. One thing I would say is that if the electrical industry raises the barrier to entry for people, more people will go under the bar and not become trained or qualified in any way. That is not good for your industry in terms of competition or reputation. A legal requirement for registration is the only solution and I’ve lobbied to that effect to most of the decision makers, hopefully with a bit of effort, we can tidy up this industry. But please don’t shoot the messenger here.

I don’t think it’s my place to contribute on these forums generally; our only reason to contribute in this case was to defend an incorrect slur on our reputation, so I’ll sign off for now.

Carl Bennett MD
TS4U

 

[imago]

my experience is in training and business, my SO19 career is most definitely relevant for the education industry

I'd heard education could be rough, but I didn't realise it was that bad!

 

[oldtimer]

No need to get high and mighty it was not a slur but it was a critic on how can I put this your enthusiastic promotion of your business that in my opinion was bordering on the trades description act.

 

[Strima]

We have considered starting an e petition to parliament re licencing of electricians, would there be support for that if we set it up?

Carl Bennett
MD Trade Skills 4U

And who would we have to pay for re-licensing qualifications? Bit obvious to me that this is more financially driven than any other reason.

 

[Engineer54]

Hi All,

The reason we originally got involved in this thread was because our integrity and the validity of this case study was questioned. To get drawn into a debate about long and short courses is pointless because in our view people taking training are always to be supported by doing the right thing, but as a specialist electrical training provider we will always deliver the courses that current legislation and the customer demands, we just train people in currently available qualifications, we don't decide who can work in the industry.

I think what you mean here is, You will always take advantage of supplying the lowest standard of C&G qualification possible, claiming that is all that is required by the legislation. What do we care, we don't decide if these people we have trained are suitably trained to be working in any particular sector on their own.

''people taking training are Always supported by doing the right thing'' Yes, ...unless that training doesn't and/or can't deliver the levels required, to be fully competent in that profession !!!

In fact – Let’s be frank, the electrical installation industry is in practice unregulated as anyone can do anything, anywhere. As long as there is no requirement for a licence to practice as an electrician or competent installer it will continue to be the case; a completely untrained unqualified person of any age can go into a DIY store or any electrical wholesalers and buy anything, consumer units, power showers the lot and go and fit it anywhere, flying under the radar of the Part P regs which are let’s face it, poorly policed.

Again, you take full advantage of the electrical industry not being adequately regulated!! Were not talking about the DIY'ers here, they have been around forever, we are talking about those people that go through training establishments such as your own, come out the other end after 19 day's and are not that much better, than the better DIY'er... Unfortunately most seem to think they are fully trained, i can only surmise, they have been led to believe this by the training centers they have attended...

Our view is that people who join the industry, get qualified, get trained, get registered, get insurance, pay taxes are the good guys. You cannot conceivably stop the many thousands of associated trades from installing electrics, literally tens of thousands of small businesses would go bust if you did. The Aircon engineer or conservatory builder or pool engineer will never undertake a full 3 year apprenticeship and in any case only 5% of electrical contractors have the ability to take on apprentices, so who would they do their NVQ with? We train these types of small business people and are proud to support them, as we do existing electrical contractors. The greater majority of people who stand in the wholesalers queues everyday are neither properly trained nor qualified in any way. Its our view and we lobby those decision makers on your behalf, that anyone installing electrics should be legally required to be at least registered competent, until then, any discussions on forums though understandable are merely moans and irrelevant.

No-one ever told you, that a little knowledge is worse than no-knowledge?? An aircon technician hopefully would have had appropriate training from day one, which would have covered both applied and practical electrical credits attached to the relevant C&G or diploma to their industry. Are you seriously advocating training a general builder, kitchen fitter, plumber etc in snippets of electrical installation?? So what was so very wrong in the past, where these totally unrelated trades, hired a qualified electrician to undertake the electrical works on these small contracts?? In real terms all you have done for the electrical industry, is to under value and de-value the overall status of the Real Qualified Electricians in the UK!!

I was just wondering why, your all for a Registered Licensing system for electricians in the UK, then it dawned on me, all those under trained inexperienced so-called Domestic Installers that the training centers have been churning out by the thousands, will all ''Require'' further qualifications and NVQ3's in order to become a qualified licensed electrician, every angle covered, What!!! lol!!!


Why don’t you try and positively contribute to change things?

We have considered starting an e petition to parliament re licencing of electricians, would there be support for that if we set it up?

Carl Bennett
MD Trade Skills 4U

I'm just wondering what you mean by ''Integrity''?? Do you mean the integrity of knowingly putting guy's (and Gal's) out into the market place and peoples homes, that neither have the knowledge or the experience to warrant the status given to them by companies such as your own and scheme providers??

Sorry, i'm not buying into your arguments here, but i do understand as the MD of a training company, the need for you to try and find arguments for churning out these people in 19 days. But none of it has anything to do with integrity....

 

[trev]

Ok Carl, how about you post up that petition calling for a properly ran licencing system just like they have in many other countrys around the world, I reckon the support would be massive, I know I'd be posting links to it on facebook etc.
If the entry requirements were as stringent as we would like however, if it were to be implemented by some strange quirk of fate it may well put you out of business.

 

[Engineer54]

Ok Carl, how about you post up that petition calling for a properly ran licencing system just like they have in many other countrys around the world, I reckon the support would be massive, I know I'd be posting links to it on facebook etc.
If the entry requirements were as stringent as we would like however, if it were to be implemented by some strange quirk of fate it may well put you out of business.

Oh no it won't, ...but it may well put an end to these 19 day wanna-be's!!! These training companies will be feeding off the existing under qualified DI's for a good few years... lol!!!

 

[trev]

Oh no it won't, ...but it may well put an end to these 19 day wanna-be's!!! These training companies will be feeding off the existing under qualified DI's for a good few years... lol!!!

Sorry mate, didn't think of that angle. I get wound up far too easily these days, someone told me years ago that you get more tolerant with age. Ain't happening here yet

 

[Rampage]

Ok Carl, how about you post up that petition calling for a properly ran licencing system just like they have in many other countrys around the world, I reckon the support would be massive, I know I'd be posting links to it on facebook etc.
If the entry requirements were as stringent as we would like however, if it were to be implemented by some strange quirk of fate it may well put you out of business.

There was one on the e-gov website ages ago. It obviously didn't get very far!

 

[trev]

They couldn't have publicised it very well then, I'd have thought the forum members would have been all over it like a bad rash

 

[Rampage]

They couldn't have publicised it very well then, I'd have thought the forum members would have been all over it like a bad rash

The link to it was on here! Possibly one of the stickies?

 

[Engineer54]

Sorry mate, didn't think of that angle. I get wound up far too easily these days, someone told me years ago that you get more tolerant with age. Ain't happening here yet

I just get wound up by these people that play a major and systematic role in the de valuing, and break-up of our industry trying to convince us, that he is one of the good guy's.

 

[Swicade]

I seem to remember there was a time when each part of a job had it's own tradesman....not one tradesman who could do everything.

These days i often hear my dear departed grandad saying 'jack of all trades master of none' for some reason.

The colleges were doing fine doing thier bit to help those dedicated enough to do a 3 year course. It's true not many firms are taking on apprentices at present BUT maybe thats down to the fact they have enough workers to cover the workload (so no apprentices/mates needed) as there's so many people trying to do the job out there with so little work to go around.

Only my personal opinion but the rapid rate of new 'Qualified' electricians being thrown out by skill centres is making it even less likely a firm will take on a proper apprentice making people more tempted to take the quick course (as they cant get an apprenticeship)........very good marketing stratergy for maximum profit and no amount of spin or "we're trying to do XXXX to help you guys and gals out" will change my opinion (not that any skills center really cares anyway).

I best leggit quick before i get a knock on the door....

 

[trev]

That epetition closed last December so Carl, you're good to go with another. Fill yer boots bonny lad and let us have the link to it when it's published

 

[Rampage]

That epetition closed last December so Carl, you're good to go with another. Fill yer boots bonny lad and let us have the link to it when it's published

He said he's not coming back for now.
Why don't you do it?
i had to listen to a 15 minute rant about it from someone at work. I told him about the e-petition but he didn't seem interested. I asked him 2 weeks later if he had signed it and the reply was "why should I"

 

[trev]

He said he's not coming back for now.
Why don't you do it?
i had to listen to a 15 minute rant about it from someone at work. I told him about the e-petition but he didn't seem interested. I asked him 2 weeks later if he had signed it and the reply was "why should I"

PM sent in reply mate

 

[Guitarist]

Our view is that people who join the industry, get qualified, get trained, get registered, get insurance, pay taxes are the good guys. You cannot conceivably stop the many thousands of associated trades from installing electrics, literally tens of thousands of small businesses would go bust if you did. The Aircon engineer or conservatory builder or pool engineer will never undertake a full 3 year apprenticeship

Carl Bennett
MD Trade Skills 4U

I must be missing something here, but isn't that where a time-served, qualified electrician comes in?
I don't install gas systems when I am rewiring a house, I get a gas engineer in. That doesn't mean that I will go bust!