immersion heater and a shower pump

[tonys]

Pushrod - Goodstuff

Spinlondon - You need to play catch up, that's old news, read the complete thread.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I'll try to keep up.

 

[tonys]

I'll try to keep up.

lol good stuff

 

[nickblake]

Opps , sorry about that chaps , after the recent accident and coming within 5 mil of loosing a small part of my male anatomy , i think its effected my brain a tad , what i will say to try and get my self out of the poop is you cant use a plug and socket for an immersion heater regulation 554.3.3 ,bound to have been mentioned before ,again my appologies for the error

 

[tonys]

Nick

Re-read all my posts and then re-read the regulation heading and then see if your change your view ?

 

[MarkieSparkie]

The standard immersion element construction:
The element is made of a spiral of resistance wire (Eureka or Constantin) sometimes on a insulated former or self supporting, connected between Line-Neutral terminals.
This is contained in an earthed protective loop of tube that is brazed to the the tank nut/ terminal header, the earth terminal is brazed to the header.
The insulation between the element and protective tube is air or silica.
As already stated 554.3.3 applies to Electrode Boilers where the outer sheath is at Line potential and the cylinder is usually connected to Neutral & Earth, the liquid is the electrolyte that allows current to flow. These are normally encountered in industrial/commercial processing plant.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

No Mark actually it's 554.1 that refers to electrode heaters.
554.3 definately refers to immersion heaters.
The sticking point has been whether these heating elements are insulated or not.

 

[pushrod]

You have argued tenaciously tonys (respect for that) but i think you are wrong on your view that immersion heaters are not covered by regulation 554.3.

The actual resistance wire in an immersion heater must be insulated, it would be inconceivable that it would not, just as a cooker element has its resistance wire covered by insulation inside the metal casing. If a resistance wire was flopping around loose inside a metal case it would immediately short out to earth.

I think regulation 554.3 is talking about the outside of the element not being embedded in any insulation. The element being the whole thing not just the wire.

If this reg excluded immersion heater on the grounds that they were "insulated" - then there would be regs for the connection of "insulated" water heaters, after all there would have to be regs covering the connection of ordinary domestic immersion heaters - There are no regs for the connection of "insulated water heaters" . I can only think that your chat with niceic must have been a bit at cross purposes and the guy was thinking about the insulation that is around the resistance wire.

 

[Martin Bradley]

Love it, so are we all clear, LOL.

 

[tonys]

Pushrod

The Technical guy at the NICEIC went off for confirmation from who ever and phoned me back half and hour later to confirm the regulation in question does not apply to the element in question.

Now going back just before the 17th came in, under the 16th the same regulations were in force and so was they back in the 15th.

Its up to you who Pushrod what you want to believe. I know when I coded a plug top I got a pull from a long serving Engineer and he had been with the NICEIC from the beginning and he knew his stuff.

Fair play what ever you do.

 

[andyb]

Nobody said it would be easy!!

Leaving aside the insulation debate, Nickblake points out that It's a building reg so thats good enough for me.
As Tony points out it's good practice to use a 20amp d/p or fcu,
Also as mentioned earlier it's in the IEE on site guide.

To go back to the op, I would give it a code 4.

But what if the immersion was fed by swa, could I use the armoured as a cpc? And suppose it was in an external garage, can I export the earth?
And will I need to test it.

 

[pushrod]

Nobody said it would be easy!!

To go back to the op, I would give it a code 4.

But what if the immersion was fed by swa, could I use the armoured as a cpc? And suppose it was in an external garage, can I export the earth?
And will I need to test it.

LOL i think you are about the first person to give an answer
This thread could have been sooooo short, except for the other interesting points you have raised

 

[Deleted member 9648]

For what it is worth I believe Tony is correct.....if you refer to reg 554.3.2 it states that all metal parts of the heater or boiler in contact with the water other than current carrying parts shall be solidly and mettallically connected to a metal water supply pipe which is earthed by means independant of the CPC. This would mean a normal immersion element tank could not be supplied by plastic pipes.
IMO 554.3 is referring to a bare heating element immersed in the water.

 

[pushrod]

For what it is worth I believe Tony is correct.....if you refer to reg 554.3.2 it states that all metal parts of the heater or boiler in contact with the water other than current carrying parts shall be solidly and mettallically connected to a metal water supply pipe which is earthed by means independant of the CPC. This would mean a normal immersion element tank could not be supplied by plastic pipes.
IMO 554.3 is referring to a bare heating element immersed in the water.

what about bonding?

Where do you find a bare resistance wire in water?

Where then are the regs for the connection of domestic immersion heaters?

 

[tonys]

what about bonding? Supplementary ?

Where do you find a bare resistance wire in water? Insulated Tanks, but a bit technical for me. Specialist work maybe ?

Where then are the regs for the connection of domestic immersion heaters? Why does there have to be any ? are there regulations for shower units ? genuine question ? are they uninsulated elements ? is that why they have double pole switches ?

Good debate, must admit, but will all come out in the wash once I get the e-mail lol