immersion heater and a shower pump

[tonys]

Malc

If its proved wrong and these immersion heaters are not of an insulated type then a double switch it is.

 

[Deleted member 26818]

Section 554.3 relates to Water heaters having immersed (that's immersion heaters) and uninsulated heating elements (that's standard elements where the outer sheath is connected to earth).

 

[malcolmsanford]

Malc

If its proved wrong and these immersion heaters are not of an insulated type then a double switch it is.

Like wise me tony if your right mate then a plug and socket it is, just be nice to get a definitive answer like we have on exporting the earth in a TNC-S .............Eeeeeek

 

[malcolmsanford]

Section 554.3 relates to Water heaters having immersed (that's immersion heaters) and uninsulated heating elements (that's standard elements where the outer sheath is connected to earth).

And we seem to have it thank you Spin.

 

[tonys]

just on phone to technical malc

 

[Martin Bradley]

But dont forget about a unskilled people, removing the plug while the IMM Heater is on at 3Kw, Arcing may occur and this may fuse the plug in a way that it is part in and out , stuck and then the unskilled person may attempt to pull the plug out and come in contact with pins, Long shot. LOL. But you never know?.

20 amp double pole spur all the way for me, since the tank may need to be on its own circuit most of the time it does, then i cant see the point in having a fuse in line with the db protective device, even though you can isolate at spur, you know that you should also lock off protetive device at db. that is why i say 20 amp dp switch and 15/16amp protective devie at db.

 

[tonys]

Right

Waiting for a return call and Ive just put an e-mail over as well to get something in writing. Also the Engineer who pulled me on my PIR "plug top immersion" has since retired, so no he will get the blame if I'm wrong. But it will be good to find what the NICEIC has say to my questions.

Also, what ever the answer I want my phone-call monies back as well from the thread starter lol

 

[tonys]

Right

NICEIC Technical phoned me and said I'm right.

The Domestic Type Immersion Heater is of an INSULATED TYPE therefore regulation 554.3 is not applicable, meaning it does not apply.

Also a 13amp plug top is an acceptable from of isolation.

I will be getting an e-mail to confirm this from Technical as well.

Cheers Tony

 

[Martin Bradley]

what you have to ask yourself, is the vessel in excess of 15 litres, if so own circuit and therefore a plug would never be put on this type of circuit. always use a spur this would then not allow unskilled persons to incorectly remove IMM Heater and plug IMM Heater in to an extenstion along with other items, or even still plug IMM Heater into house ring from another extenstion.
Its all down to interpretation <Red not Green.

Part P page 53 / 4.5

 

[tonys]

Martin

I don't need to ask myself anything, I just reference BS7671 and everything Ive said in this thread as been correct and complies with BS7671. So if people want go and put a code a plug top on an immersion heater, then they need to justify it, so all the ifs and the buts in the world about the extension lead scenario mean diddly to me in the real scheme of things.

If you have never seen immersion heaters on plug tops then you have not had that much exposure to domestic work in older premises.

From my experiences from years gone by before my time, a lot of the boiler timers were fitted in the airing cupboard with a plug top and so was the immersion heater. Now I reckon this may of been done so if the boiler packed up the occupant would unplug the boiler time clock and plug the immersion in to heat up the water.

 

[nickblake]

It may well have been mentioned before but i cant see it water heaters fitted to a storage vessel in excess of 15 ltrs capacity should be supplied by its own circuit Immersion heaters should be supplied by a double pole switch with flex outlet complying to BSEN60669-1 or BSEN60669-2-4 , this is according to building regulations page 56 of the electricians guide to building regs ,

 

[pushrod]

It may well have been mentioned before but i cant see it water heaters fitted to a storage vessel in excess of 15 ltrs capacity should be supplied by its own circuit Immersion heaters should be supplied by a double pole switch with flex outlet complying to BSEN60669-1 or BSEN60669-2-4 , this is according to building regulations page 56 of the electricians guide to building regs , and if im not mistaken should not be connected to fuse connection units ,

What you somehow manage to omit from the same sentence on page 56 of the electrician's guide to the building regs is the reference to flex outlet connection unit to BS1363-4 which is the standard for 13A fused connection units!!! Which means that you might want to reconsider the rest of your post. A 13A fuse makes it safer rather than less safe.

To quote the whole paragraph from P56
"Immersion heaters should be supplied through a switched flex-outlet connection unit (to BS1363-4) or a double pole switch with flex outlet complying with BS EN60669-1 or BS EN 60669-2-4"

 

[tonys]

At the end of the day I would of thought everyone agrees its best practice to put an immersion heater on either a switched fused spur or double pole switch.

But because the plug top method can comply with BS7671 , you have to give it consideration if the sole purpose of the circuit is to feed the immersion heater when carrying out a PIR.

Pushrod - Because it was your thread I hope you don't think I was trying to dig you out, I was just trying to play catch up lol

 

[pushrod]

Pushrod - Because it was your thread I hope you don't think I was trying to dig you out, I was just trying to play catch up lol

No probs, funny though how a couple of simple questions can generate 8 pages of discussion

 

[Deleted member 26818]

This is from Wikipedia:
Immersion heater
Water heating by electricity is usually done by an immersion heater mounted in the top of the hot water cylinder. The heater contains an insulated electric resistance heater and a temperature sensor. Domestic immersion heaters (usually rated at 3 kilowatts in the UK) run on the normal domestic electricity supply. Electric shower and tankless heater also use a immersion heater shielded or naked which is turned on by the water passing and turned off when the tap is closed. A group of heater working each one or together provide different heating levels. Electric showers and tankless heaters usually have since 3kilowatts to 7.5kilowatts according the voltage supply. Industrial immersion heaters (such as those used in electric steam boilers) may be rated at 100 kilowatts, or more, and run on a three-phase supply. 11

This would indicate that the elements are in fact insulated.