In defence of the short course trainee

[Stevi3]

It took me 5 years to qualify as an electrician as when I left school I had no qualifications(due to my own misbehaving) but because of that I then had to spent an extra year to get a diploma in electronics and engineering which was a bridging course to get into the electrical one, but my point is that it really gets under my skin as to think that people can more or less get to this stage through a 5 week course,

The company I done my apprenticeship with would never have done any domestic work therefore my only experience in houses is through that first year in tech 6 years ago apart form some homers that I would have done. (light fittings, showers, extra sockets) I am now qualified about 2 years, having only worked about 10/12 months from qualifying, about a month ago a friends uncle asked me would I rewire his house as its being renovated. Through mostly lack of confidence and experience in houses I declined to do the work for him. What I dont understand is how can someone after only a 5 week course go and undertake work like this when through a course like that they wouldn't even be scratching the surface of what would be involved in our trade.

 

[UNG]

This is a subject that will rattle on and on and is nothing new with the electrical industry

The quick training system is nothing new those of us old enough to remember the skill centre 3 month sparks of the late 70's and early eighties and the moans of having them on a site and carrying them because of the lack of knowledge and experience while getting the same rate of pay. The difference now is the time scale is 5 weeks.

How much further they can reduce training times has yet to be seen I wonder when there will be a new edition to the series of "Dummies" books Electrical installation for Dummies!!

As I have previously said in other threads these courses are being mis-sold and promising things that are not being achieved, the salesmans pitch of this dream of 50k a year after 5 weeks is all to enticing to some and clouds the judgement. If it's too good to be true then it is is forgotten.
And the issue of "licence" to work by the scheme providers on the strength of a short course qualification without demonstrating reasonable experience has to be aiding and abetting and endorsing the 5 week system. If the internet ceased to exist how would the Electrical Trainee course continue to exist with no where for those problem questions to be asked

The CITO electrical course for caravan engineers is another example of short course training that doesn't work it lasts 2 days and aims to make them competent to produce PIR's for caravan electrics with little or no knowledge before attending

To take something from a comment made earlier does any one know of any forums for brain surgeons as I'm thinking of retraining and would like some advice as the number of head cases in the world is on the up so there must be an opportunity

It is unfortunate that there are not that many companies that can offer the chance to newly trained operatives to gain experience in all aspects of electrical work to produce well round electricians these days but it all goes along with the decline in standards that has been happening unchecked for years

Comments where made on this forum about protecting the term "Engineer" may be the term "Qualified Electrician" should be protected and used by those who have the breath of experience and knowledge to underpin the term.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

This is a subject that will rattle on and on and is nothing new with the electrical industry

The quick training system is nothing new those of us old enough to remember the skill centre 3 month sparks of the late 70's and early eighties and the moans of having them on a site and carrying them because of the lack of knowledge and experience while getting the same rate of pay. The difference now is the time scale is 5 weeks.

How much further they can reduce training times has yet to be seen I wonder when there will be a new edition to the series of "Dummies" books Electrical installation for Dummies!!

As I have previously said in other threads these courses are being mis-sold and promising things that are not being achieved, the salesmans pitch of this dream of 50k a year after 5 weeks is all to enticing to some and clouds the judgement. If it's too good to be true then it is is forgotten.
And the issue of "licence" to work by the scheme providers on the strength of a short course qualification without demonstrating reasonable experience has to be aiding and abetting and endorsing the 5 week system. If the internet ceased to exist how would the Electrical Trainee course continue to exist with no where for those problem questions to be asked

The CITO electrical course for caravan engineers is another example of short course training that doesn't work it lasts 2 days and aims to make them competent to produce PIR's for caravan electrics with little or no knowledge before attending

To take something from a comment made earlier does any one know of any forums for brain surgeons as I'm thinking of retraining and would like some advice as the number of head cases in the world is on the up so there must be an opportunity

It is unfortunate that there are not that many companies that can offer the chance to newly trained operatives to gain experience in all aspects of electrical work to produce well round electricians these days but it all goes along with the decline in standards that has been happening unchecked for years

Comments where made on this forum about protecting the term "Engineer" may be the term "Qualified Electrician" should be protected and used by those who have the breath of experience and knowledge to underpin the term.

Depends...if were talking about "PAT testing engineer"<<<<<whatever the hell that is.....

 

[Specialist]

PAT Testing Engineer: Someone who's paper qualified to test portable appliances but not nescessarily with any understanding of the appliances they test or how to repair any faults they find or even how to change the fuse in the plug.
Just been through this with a local firm, 1 guy did a pat test on 42 appliances & was back out the door in 65 minutes. When the boss came back off holiday he see's all these pass stickers even on appliances without plugs on & smells a rat. He's talking about taking the guy to court to get his money back.

 

[kung]

I think it would be better to have a domestic installers forum ! I have respect for anyone who learns the right way and people who pay out of their own pocket as the domestic installer by the time their scheme members have spent what is a lot of money getting started etc the gripe is with me is someone arguing with me on how to do a job ! and we have had a cpl on here ! i know theres good and bad in sparks as well as domestic installers and i dont offend any unless called for. I think after doing a domestic installers scheme assessment i was very supprised on how easy it was but i suppose after years in the game and Ind/Com installs that can be more complex if i failed an assessment id give the game up and be a plummer ! As i said i have no problem with anyone only cowboys and people doing dangerous installs !
Good luck.

 

[kung]

To take something from a comment made earlier does any one know of any forums for brain surgeons as I'm thinking of retraining and would like some advice as the number of head cases in the world is on the up so there must be an opportunity

Dont know about that but there is a thread kicking about where there was a bit on the tv where nannys can earn about £65k !

 

[trev]

How do the Electrical Trainee’s get insurance? Any company with an ounce of sense wouldn’t touch them with a barge pole.

They take them because they can pay mate. I'm guessing there'll be a shedload of exclusion clauses in the small print which will allow them not to pay out in the event of a claim

 

[GLENNSPARK]

same with me Kung......the problem i have with these "courses".....is the shallow and narrow content of em.......as a result you get em coming in here and asking about stuff they should know....such as disconnection times, diversity and what size cable/s to use etc.....no good installing if you cant get your head around the basics.....

 

[GLENNSPARK]

i might also like to add that i dont have any issues with anyone trying to better themaelves.....its the 5 week courses and the content of em.....and the companies/organisations behind em......promising 50K plus a year and all that nonsense......

 

[DNS1]

As I've already said, I'm doing a "quick" course, because I have no other option.

What really annoys me is the way that certain "training providers" take the hard sell approach and spout all this b*ll*cks about being fully qualified in 5 weeks, in order to justify their outrageous fees.

After talking to a couple of such providers I admit I was very tempted, but thanks to warnings on here I didn't sign up.

Instead I kept looking, checked out some reviews and made the decision to go with a local provider which charges a third of what others do and told me straight away that once I'd finished I'd be an inexperienced domestic installer only. These guys listened to me, heard what experience I had, heard what I wanted out of the course and advised me accordingly.

The problem doesn't lie with reputable training centres, or the individuals, it lies with the firms who grab the money in return for a load of false promises.

 

[down2earth]

i might also like to add that i dont have any issues with anyone trying to better themaelves.....its the 5 week courses and the content of em.....and the companies/organisations behind em......promising 50K plus a year and all that nonsense......

That was really my point at the start of the thread, us Electrical Trainee's have if anything been mis sold the courses, having been through the process (and paid the money) I am amazed that this ever got through legislation now I know how much I don't know (if you see what I mean).

 

[Octopus]

Cripes 10 pages in and at this moment 13 people viewing!

 

[kung]

Dammmmmmmmmm in all this exitement reading all this i picked up me coffee and missed me mouth !!!!!!!!! arhhhhhhhhh all down the front of me best top ! better not do any testing today just in case i miss the CU and stick the probes in the cutout !

 

[UNG]

Dammmmmmmmmm in all this exitement reading all this i picked up me coffee and missed me mouth !!!!!!!!! arhhhhhhhhh all down the front of me best top ! better not do any testing today just in case i miss the CU and stick the probes in the cutout !

Obviously some retraining needed here in coffee drinking :lol::lol::lol:

 

[Dave 85]

I agree with you about the hostility, its not necessary
For me its not so much about how long you're at college for. The full 2330 teaches you a hell of a lot of stuff that, to be frank, you are never going to need as a domestic sparky (three phase motors, power factor correction and the like). I'd say its more about experience working with someone. You could go to college for 10 years and they still wouldn't teach you how to re-wire a house. I would definetly recommend at least 6 months full time work with a decent sparky before you start trying to do to much work on your own.

With regards to dumbing down the industry-My experience is that the work I see which is done in blue and brown T&E is generally done to a far better standard than the old stuff. I personally find that Part P has scared off a lot of the builders, kitchen fitters, cowboys etc. I know it also scared off a lot of sparkies approaching retirement age, but im not complaining.

 

[trev]

I agree with you about the hostility, its not necessary
For me its not so much about how long you're at college for. The full 2330 teaches you a hell of a lot of stuff that, to be frank, you are never going to need as a domestic sparky(three phase motors, power factor correction and the like)
I agree but 2330 is not intended to spit out housebashers.
I'd say its more about experience working with someone. You could go to college for 10 years and they still wouldn't teach you how to re-wire a house. I would definetly recommend at least 6 months full time work with a decent sparky before you start trying to do to much work on your own.

With regards to dumbing down the industry-My experience is that the work I see which is done in blue and brown T&E is generally done to a far better standard than the old stuff. I personally find that Part P has scared off a lot of the builders, kitchen fitters, cowboys etc. I know it also scared off a lot of sparkies approaching retirement age, but im not complaining.

Part P has not scared off any builders, kitchen fitters or cowboys mate at least not in my experience. If anything it has confirmed to all and sundry that "It's just a few wires, you don't need to know any of that other nonsense"
Or in other words it has demeaned the trade that took me a long time and a lot of effort to become qualified in

 

[Specialist]

Part P has not scared off any builders, kitchen fitters or cowboys mate at least not in my experience. If anything it has confirmed to all and sundry that "It's just a few wires, you don't need to know any of that other nonsense"
Or in other words it has demeaned the trade that took me a long time and a lot of effort to become qualified in

:hurray::icon14: Nor has it stopped any of them in my experience either. Dave 85 you say there's a lot of stuff you don't need to know to be a DI, but what happens when the DI's start running out of work (There's only so much to go round & there's more & more of them on what seems a Daily basis) & decide to play with 3 phase ? It's only a couple more wires after all so how hard can it be ?

 

[UNG]

I agree with you about the hostility, its not necessary
For me its not so much about how long you're at college for. The full 2330 teaches you a hell of a lot of stuff that, to be frank, you are never going to need as a domestic sparky (three phase motors, power factor correction and the like). I'd say its more about experience working with someone. You could go to college for 10 years and they still wouldn't teach you how to re-wire a house. I would definetly recommend at least 6 months full time work with a decent sparky before you start trying to do to much work on your own.

With regard to the hostility it probably isn't warranted but it is a two way thing the number of times the experienced guy's on here have chosen not to reply to some of the unnecessary questions that are asked and the OP comes back on an hour or two later demanding in what I take as a hostile manner an answer and then get's offended by the hostile response

With regard to the "I don't need to know about 3 phase as a DI " when all domestic properties are part of a three phase system and there can be faults attributable to a failure in the three phase system that appear in the single phase supply in a domestic property (floating neutral to name one) seems a little ignorant due possibly to some missing knowledge that wasn't taught during your course. I have worked on some medium to large domestic properties where the supply was three phase due to the extravagances of owners with electric everything

With regards to dumbing down the industry-My experience is that the work I see which is done in blue and brown T&E is generally done to a far better standard than the old stuff. I personally find that Part P has scared off a lot of the builders, kitchen fitters, cowboys etc. I know it also scared off a lot of sparkies approaching retirement age, but im not complaining.

Most of the blue / brown T&E has been installed to the 17th edition regs the old red / black T&E could have been installed as far back as 14th and possibly end of the 13th edition regs and the installation modified over the years so I don't believe that is a good guide to higher standards.

May be the sparks approaching retirement are at the one course / exam too many stage and called it day like the close to retirement gas fitters did back in the late eighties when there was major change in there industry

 

[Dave 85]

That is where your experiences and mine differ. I am constantly hearing the phrase "well we're not allowed to touch it anymore cos of that part p thing" With regards to a DI having a pop at 3 phase, well technically by law a 17 yr old with a driving liscence can drive a 400bhp subaru impreza. Doesnt mean its a good idea. Personally Im fully 2330 level 3, 17th ed etc but I stick to what I know. Houses. Someone asks me to do work on 3 phase, I say no thanks.

 

[kung]

play with 3 phase ? It's only a couple more wires after all so how hard can it be ?

Try sticking their fingers across 2 phases ! unlike single phase.

 

[Specialist]

Try sticking their fingers across 2 phases ! unlike single phase.

Ooh stop putting ideas in my head:devil::lol::devil2:

 

[UNG]

That is where your experiences and mine differ. I am constantly hearing the phrase "well we're not allowed to touch it anymore cos of that part p thing" With regards to a DI having a pop at 3 phase, well technically by law a 17 yr old with a driving liscence can drive a 400bhp subaru impreza. Doesnt mean its a good idea. Personally Im fully 2330 level 3, 17th ed etc but I stick to what I know. Houses. Someone asks me to do work on 3 phase, I say no thanks.

Don't understand what a 400 horse Subaru has got to do with working on three phase and what you are trying to say, I've worked with three phase in industrial, commercial and domestic properties since I was 16. When all supplies are derived from three phase it's good to understand how it works and what faults can occur in single phase systems if something fails in the supply system

If you were asked to do some work on a domestic property that had a three phase supply would you turn it down even though you are "fully" 2330 etc qualified

 

[UNG]

Try sticking their fingers across 2 phases ! unlike single phase.

Would you do it with a floating neutral on a single phase supply

 

[Guest112]

i dont understand some peoples confusion/fear of three phase??>/

 

[mechelec]

I think it would be better to have a domestic installers forum !


That is a great idea. The blind leading the blind lol

 

[kung]

Would you do it with a floating neutral on a single phase supply

Hell yer an i can eat 3 shreaded wheat !

 

[kung]

I think it would be better to have a domestic installers forum !


That is a great idea. The blind leading the blind lol

Who said that ???????????????????

 

[HappyHippyDad]

I think this is a very good topic started by Downtoearth and agree with everything they have said.

I am currently thinking of a similar course.. one evening a week for around 6 months, plus lots of study/practice in my own time I expect. I already work full time and look after my son by myself on my days off so this is my only option.

I do feel quite hesitant to ask questions sometimes on a electrical forum as often you get some remarks that just make you feel silly and stupid for asking. I have recently joined and have so far had a good experience of this site and hope that when I do start asking more questions I will not be shot down in flames for being 'dangerous'. I would simply be asking so as to further my knowledge and would have no intention of actually doing anything electrical until I was 100% certain it was safe.

I am very pleased and quite excited that such courses are available and fully intend to undertake one. I am then legally allowed to undertake work as a domestic installer but will still not do anything until I believe I am competent to do so.

If, or rather when (actually I already have) I do start asking silly questions please do as 'downtoearth' asks and give me a sensible reply that will point out my errors and encourage me to learn.

Thanks all.

 

[GLENNSPARK]

That is where your experiences and mine differ. I am constantly hearing the phrase "well we're not allowed to touch it anymore cos of that part p thing" With regards to a DI having a pop at 3 phase, well technically by law a 17 yr old with a driving liscence can drive a 400bhp subaru impreza. Doesnt mean its a good idea. Personally Im fully 2330 level 3, 17th ed etc but I stick to what I know. Houses. Someone asks me to do work on 3 phase, I say no thanks.

and why not?......you only get 230V to neutral or earth of ov 3 phase.....400V between phases.....and when doing a safe isolation....its 10 tests rather than the 3 for single phase......and if using test equipment that is not able to test 400V (phase to phase)..such as seperates....then you take the highest phase to neutral...and double it for PFC....not a rocket science is it??.....

 

[Specialist]

Evening Glenn.

 

[alarm man]

well technically by law a 17 yr old with a driving liscence can drive a 400bhp subaru impreza.

but we all sit the same test to drive a car..

 

[GLENNSPARK]

cant get my head round the fear factor involving 3 phase....its like saying "il only be a bit dead if i get a belt of ov single phase...i`l be less dead"....lol....still dead though..lol....

 

[Knobhead]

and why not?......you only get 230V to neutral or earth of ov 3 phase.....400V between phases.....and when doing a safe isolation....its 10 tests rather than the 3 for single phase......and if using test equipment that is not able to test 400V (phase to phase)..such as seperates....then you take the highest phase to neutral...and double it for PFC....not a rocket science is it??.....

How do you make it 10 tests? I'd do 7.

 

[Guest112]

How do you make it 10 tests? I would do 7

i think he means the ten safe isolation/ block IR tests each phase to earth, each phase neutral. between phases and neutral to earth

 

[craig newby]

Great post Richy333 I've been using this forum for years now and have been so impressed with the conduct and banter of the group members but in the last few months noticed the change of attitude in reply posts. I can understand you may feel the 5 week wonders are getting in to easy and maybe getting experience from the forum, but the ones that make a career out of deserve it and rest that don't will have wasted money but had a go. I'm experienced and sometimes I feel intimidated to post due to the reply's I read to others.. But I say to say thanks to the regular posted like Lenny, engineer 54, malcomsanford, telextrics, dec 56 and many others you have helped many people with your answers read from a distance... Forget the politics its forum to help people.

 

[Specialist]

I think this is a very good topic started by Downtoearth and agree with everything they have said.

I am currently thinking of a similar course.. one evening a week for around 6 months, plus lots of study/practice in my own time I expect. I already work full time and look after my son by myself on my days off so this is my only option.

I do feel quite hesitant to ask questions sometimes on a electrical forum as often you get some remarks that just make you feel silly and stupid for asking. I have recently joined and have so far had a good experience of this site and hope that when I do start asking more questions I will not be shot down in flames for being 'dangerous'. I would simply be asking so as to further my knowledge and would have no intention of actually doing anything electrical until I was 100% certain it was safe.

I am very pleased and quite excited that such courses are available and fully intend to undertake one. I am then legally allowed to undertake work as a domestic installer but will still not do anything until I believe I am competent to do so.

If, or rather when (actually I already have) I do start asking silly questions please do as 'downtoearth' asks and give me a sensible reply that will point out my errors and encourage me to learn.

Thanks all.

I've no doubt that from your attitude i.e you don't think you know it all & realise that even after doing a Domestic installer course you really won't be competent to do it on your own. Then you will get sensible answers even if you think the questions are silly, as has been said previously what rankles with most of us is the DI's that come on here telling us how fully qualified they are & how much they know & then ask questions the equivalent of how do i turn a light on. Anyway welcome to the Forum & ask away.

 

[Guest112]

im a qualified spark and i still ask stupid questions :rolleyes4: always better to ask

 

[Specialist]

ere Peter: Ow do I turn a light switch on ? :lol:

 

[flukey]

I have recently joined and have so far had a good experience of this site and hope that when I do start asking more questions I will not be shot down in flames for being 'dangerous'. I would simply be asking so as to further my knowledge and would have no intention of actually doing anything electrical until I was 100% certain it was safe.

I am very pleased and quite excited that such courses are available and fully intend to undertake one. I am then legally allowed to undertake work as a domestic installer but will still not do anything until I believe I am competent to do so.


Thanks all.

stick to that and noone on here will shoot you down in flames.

the problems arise on here when Electrical Trainee complete jobs theyre not competent to do then come on here looking for a way out

ask before you do the work and youll be surprised by the help you will get and enjoy your stay much more

 

[ipf]

ere Peter: Ow do I turn a light switch on ? :lol:

Pull it:confused5: