Kitchen installer expanding.

[thebartman]

Hi guys, chances are I might get flamed for this but what the hell....

I currently run a kitchen design and installation business and the electrical side is problematic for us, we subcontract so depend on various people across our area however, at times this makes quoting for jobs difficult, erodes our profit and puts the quality of our service in the hands of others so the obvious solution us to bring it in house.

Weve spoken to training providers and have identified the C&G 4141-01 / 2393 / 2392-10 / 2382 as a potential option.

The problem arises with part P certification, namely getting the work signed off until we have enough of a portfolio to join a registered body as this line if work wouldnt be our daily bread a butter.

So, my question is, how realistic is third party or building control sign off in this situation and how does it work?

Obviously I've asked a few of the bodies for more info but have yet to get replies so thought I might get an outline here.

Apologies in advance if this is a much covered topic but really would appreciate some help and advice.

 

[Megawatt]

Hi guys, chances are I might get flamed for this but what the hell....

I currently run a kitchen design and installation business and the electrical side is problematic for us, we subcontract so depend on various people across our area however, at times this makes quoting for jobs difficult, erodes our profit and puts the quality of our service in the hands of others so the obvious solution us to bring it in house.

Weve spoken to training providers and have identified the C&G 4141-01 / 2393 / 2392-10 / 2382 as a potential option.

The problem arises with part P certification, namely getting the work signed off until we have enough of a portfolio to join a registered body as this line if work wouldnt be our daily bread a butter.

So, my question is, how realistic is third party or building control sign off in this situation and how does it work?

Obviously I've asked a few of the bodies for more info but have yet to get replies so thought I might get an outline here.

Apologies in advance if this is a much covered topic but really would appreciate some help and advice.

Hire a qualified electrician get to know them and use the same company for your upgrades

 

[thebartman]

As I said mate, we subcontract a few already but service quite a large area so using the same contractor isn't realistic nor is employing someone full time.

Financially and from a logistic point of view it would make a lot more sence to up skill in house as we would be creating multi skilled employees rather than employing someone just for electrical work.

Were certainly not doing 52 weeks of electrical work, that's for sure.

Not a slight at anyone on this forum but as we need quick and reliable response and have found this to be sporadic at best when subcontracting and also we find variations in the way people work causes integration problems so it absolutely makes sence to have a multi skilled employee on our books.

 

[Deleted account]

Third party sign off may be difficult as niceic don’t do third party.
I believe only napit registered do this.

Building control sign off will charge you in excess of £250. And probably contract a napit sparky to do this anyway. Different building control areas different prices and procedures.

It may be financially viable to train someone up in house, but to do it will take 3 or 4 years at least. Unless you are thinking of going the short course route, which is not a good idea.

The short course route will not give you the quals or experience to become registered with an approved scheme.

Every registration body expects a minimum qualification and at least 2 years on tools experience. These are the minimum requirements.

 

[Strima]

If you're expanding then it would be better to get an electrician on the books.

You will more than likely be carrying out notifiable works at some point and this would be easier and cheaper to do when part of a self certification scheme with a scheme provider such as the NICEIC/NAPIT/STROMA etc.

It's easier to train an electrician to do other works than the other way round. Kitchen fitters who do electrics tend to be the worst for cutting corners and leaving poor/dangerous installations.

 

[Deleted account]

Strima has come up with a good idea. Maybe it would be better to get an electrician on the bookies and give him some multi training. So he can do kitchens plumbing and then the electrics.

Easier to train that way around.

 

[thebartman]

Definitely food for thought guys however were not expanding per say, more looking at ways to be more efficient and offer a more rounded service. I'd love to be in a place where I could afford more staff but from a cost to benefit perspective were probably not there yet.

The point about cutting corners probably says more about some 'kitchen fitters' than the trade generally, some kitchen fitters cant fit a worktop for example, that's just not how we work. Quality first.

One thing that has sparked my interest about the short courses not offering the correct qualifications, the training providers we have spoken to are saying the complete opposite, the line they are giving us is, employee will be qualified to C&G level and all the would need would be building control or third party sign off following works.

There seems to be a disparity between the previous comments and what the training providers are saying and I'm wondering what I'm missing?

Thanks for the input guys.

 

[Strima]

Training providers will say what you want to hear to get money out of you. most of it is complete bowlocks.

 

[Deleted account]

Don’t speak to the course providers they have no power to say they are able to register you or not. All they want is your money and will tell you anything to get you on the course. They won’t lie, but they won’t disclose everything.

You can trip them up if you know the right questions to ask.


Speak to napit/ elects a/ niceic. They are the ones who will say yes or no to registration not the course providers.

 

[thebartman]

Thanks guys, appreciate the advice, I have directed similar questions to a couple if bodies, think its probably prudent to seek there input before giving this any more thought or investing any money.

 

[Robson689]

Definitely food for thought guys however were not expanding per say, more looking at ways to be more efficient and offer a more rounded service. I'd love to be in a place where I could afford more staff but from a cost to benefit perspective were probably not there yet.

The point about cutting corners probably says more about some 'kitchen fitters' than the trade generally, some kitchen fitters cant fit a worktop for example, that's just not how we work. Quality first.

One thing that has sparked my interest about the short courses not offering the correct qualifications, the training providers we have spoken to are saying the complete opposite, the line they are giving us is, employee will be qualified to C&G level and all the would need would be building control or third party sign off following works.

There seems to be a disparity between the previous comments and what the training providers are saying and I'm wondering what I'm missing?

Thanks for the input guys.

Anyone can get electrical work signed off via building control or third party scheme. They are just trying to sell their courses but ultimately you'll be paying hundreds per job to get it signed off as someone said above.

 

[Pretty Mouth]

I took the short course route. I'm not on a part p scheme yet (I use a 3rd party guy), but most of the other guys from the course are, NICEIC being the most popular as there's no minimum experience required. Stroma want 2 years, as do Napit I believe. So you can get registered via the short course route.

 

[Deleted account]

I took the short course route. I'm not on a part p scheme yet (I use a 3rd party guy), but most of the other guys from the course are, NICEIC being the most popular as there's no minimum experience required. Stroma want 2 years, as do Napit I believe. So you can get registered via the short course route.

Which short course was that?

Was it the domestic installer and 18th edition courses?

How many day at college was it?

Genuinely curious not having a go.

 

[Baddegg]

I was in the same boat as you @thebartman, I run a building firm and was getting fed up with space is wanting the earth and letting me down and rather ironically the short course sparks not having a clue, so I took some time out and Laboured for a spark myself for approximately 18 months I then went on the 6 week course and have never looked back.
Please don’t listen to the course providers they will teach you to pass an exam but in the real world experience is king and you’ll sink quickly, if you are looking to put your name to a certificate I’d make sure you know what you are talking about should the worst happen, I’m not saying don’t do it, many have and have succeeded in the domestic area, but it is so much more than just doing the course and thinking you will be ok

 

[GBDamo]

Third party sign off may be difficult as niceic don’t do third party.
I believe only napit registered do this.

Building control sign off will charge you in excess of £250. And probably contract a napit sparky to do this anyway. Different building control areas different prices and procedures.

It may be financially viable to train someone up in house, but to do it will take 3 or 4 years at least. Unless you are thinking of going the short course route, which is not a good idea.

The short course route will not give you the quals or experience to become registered with an approved scheme.

Every registration body expects a minimum qualification and at least 2 years on tools experience. These are the minimum requirements.

I have to disagree there, the OPs situation is exaclty what the short corses were supposed to be for and will offer all the qualifications required.

It is the pratical skills that will be lacking.

As far as work portfolio goes most CP schemes will require a substantial piece of work to assess including at least one new circuit along with documentary evidence of insurances, policies and procedures as well as thr requisite regulatory documentation and calibrated test equipment.

In brief, if you have someone who has the aptitude and willingness to take this on then the short courses should fulfill your needs. You may need your candidate to shadow an experienced spark for a while.