Replacement shower

[keniff]

If your replacing a shower like for like power wise, are you under any obligation to supply rcd for this? As no alteration has been made to the circuit and no change of opd has been done?

 

[Deleted member 26818]

I'm sorry, but being a pedant I find it impossible to stop being pedantic.
I wonder if there's a book I can try to read?

 

[GLENNSPARK]

I'm sorry, but being a pedant I find it impossible to stop being pedantic.
I wonder if there's a book I can try to read?

Invitation to a Beheading (Paperback)

 

[vjsmarwick]

Installation booklet for redring shower no were does it state anything about RCD and on checking others it's a recommendation so maybe those stating it has to be they may like to read the instructions

http://www.redring.co.uk/media/uploads/555%202138%2001E%20REDRING%20EXPRESSIONS%20500S.pdf

 

[GLENNSPARK]

Installation booklet for redring shower no were does it state anything about RCD and on checking others it's a recommendation so maybe those stating it has to be they may like to read the instructions

http://www.redring.co.uk/media/uploads/555%202138%2001E%20REDRING%20EXPRESSIONS%20500S.pdf

so when did i state that it had to be this...and it had to be that? try re-reading the posts....
i stated that it was prudent to apply RCD protection....

 

[Paul.M]

I really like this thread. Hand bags at dawn lol :rofl:

These are the facts:-

A like for like change of a shower (or any appliance) unit without altering the cable does not have to be up graded to an rcd.

An EIC is not needed as you have done an installation or alteration of cables.

Manufacturer's can only "recommend" what we need to do under the 7671.

The 7671 is has clear as mud on like for like changes for a any circuit. Thats down to us as electricians to do what is best for the job we have to do.





End of the day in this situation the op dose not have to put the shower on an RCD, nor upgrade the bonding. But lets face it, we all would put it on an RCD and check out the bonding because we are professional electricians that like to sleep at night.

So the answer is = No you dont BUT yes we would.

 

[onions1066]

Installation booklet for redring shower no were does it state anything about RCD and on checking others it's a recommendation so maybe those stating it has to be they may like to read the instructions

http://www.redring.co.uk/media/uploads/555 2138 01E REDRING EXPRESSIONS 500S.pdf

Lets be honest red ring are a joke anyway they probably missed that bit out to save on ink,

 

[sparkless]

everyone has a different interpretation,
clear as mud this thread

 

[richy3333]

Interesting debate here.
I guess manufacturers cannot say an RCD MUST be fitted because there is no legislation that allows them to make that statement. However the word 'recommended' is used in may of the examples given by Spin, possibly because it is the strongest word they can use.

You can see the scenario, where Tony Cable is acting as an expert witness in a court case telling the judge that an RCD would have saved the deceased's life had an RCD been fitted and the poor sparkys barrister trying to argue his way through BS7671 and Part P et al.

On a like for like replacement where there was no RCD fitted I would be saying to the customer that one should be added, but in the past when this situation has occurred I quote for the job on the basis of the 2 scenarios - with and without. I also make it clear in writing to the customer that I have informed them why it is advisable to fit an RCD, so when they don't and they are injured then there is a clear paper trail showing what they were told. I also note the MWC and my invoice appropriately. Full blown arse protection.

 

[marcusone]

Agree with Richy... Arse protection just as important as over current and short circuit protection.

 

[Heisenberg]

Here are some excerpts from manufacturers' instructions for fiting electric showers:

Triton:
The following notes are for guidance only:
5.1 A 30mA residual current device (RCD) must
be installed in all UK electric and pumped
shower circuits. This may be part of the
consumer unit or a separate unit.

If that doesn't sum up just how confusing things can get sometimes, I don't know what does.
How anyone with a semblance of intelligence can write 'for guidance only' then follow it up by using 'must' is beyond me.
Guess the expression 'mutually exclusive' is not one they have ever heard of :frown2:

 

[richy3333]

Just for interest I contacted Mira this morning asking them about their views on RCD protection with showers. I used the extract Spin (I think) posted from a Mira product guide. It seems that their view is that an RCD must be used. This is their reply:

Good morning Richard,

Many thanks for contacting us!

It appears you are referring to a product guide published before wiring regulations made fitment of an RCD a requirement. Attached to this reply is a pdf format of the product guide covering the Mira Alero, an electric shower we launched in 2008. You will see on page 9 of this guide under the electrical installation requirements, it states a residual current device MUST be included in the electrical circuit.

If you wish to respond to this email and require a prompt response, please reply ‘With History’ (i.e. attach any previous correspondence) or contact our Customer Service Department directly on 0844 571 5000. Our hours of business are 8:00am until 5:30pm Monday to Thursday, 8:00am until 5:00pm Friday, and 8:30am until 1:00pm on Saturdays.

Dave Merry
Technical Support Advisor
Kohler Mira Ltd.

 

[JulianC]

I suppose it's easy for a manufacturer to stipulate additional requirements, whether they are needed or not, when sat behind a desk in shirt and tie. I suspect the vast majority of these things are to cover their arse when their "hastily designed and built down to a cost in China pile o'crap" explodes. "No RCD fitted? Sorry sir, warranty invalid. Not our problem". Take fans - must be fused. If it's that bloody important, stick a fuse in your fan yourselves then, my cable and MCB are quite capable of withstanding any fault caused by your piece of tat thank you very much....

Also, who writes the instructions? Someone fully conversant with BS7671 and installation practices and who has given proper consideration to what is put in there? Or some office monkey who read somewhere once that all new bathroom circuits must be RCD protected and thought right, I'll stick that in me instructions and copy and paste them into every other set of instructions we come up with....

....and if their dodgy photocopied A4 pamphlet supercedes my expensive big green book with lots of big words in it, I want my money back.

 

[richy3333]

This is the page 9 Mira refer too:

2. Electrical
In a domestic installation, the rating of the electricity supplier’s fuse and the • consumer unit must be adequate for the additional demand. All Mira electric showers are high power units, it is essential to contact your electricity supplier to ensure that the supply is adequate for the product.Voltage drop due to local heavy demand will reduce the shower’s • performance.The appliance • MUST BEEARTHED by connecting the supply-cable earth conductor to the earth terminal. SUPPLEMENTARYBONDING:• Within the bathroom or shower room, all accessible conductive parts of electrical equipment and extraneous conductive parts (metal parts) that are likely to introduce earth potential, must be electrically bonded to earth using a minimum cable size of 4.0 mm• if the cable is not mechanically protected, (2.5 mm• if mechanically protected).The minimum cable size (cross-sectional area) required should be in • accordance with BS 7671.As a guide only, and in accordance with BS 7671 we recommend close circuit • protection: i.e. 9.8 kW = 45 AmpA 30 mA Residual Current Device (RCD) • MUST be included in the electrical circuit. This may be part of the consumer unit or a separate unit.A separate, permanently connected supply must be taken from the consumer • unit to the appliance through a double-pole switch, which has at least 3 mm of contact separation. The switch can be a ceiling mounted pullcord type within the shower room, or a wall mounted switch in an adjacent room.DONOT• twist the individual cable cores of either the live or neutral conductors, as this will prevent them from entering the terminal block.DONOT• exert strain on the terminal block. Ensure that the electrical connections are tightly screwed down.DONOT• turn-on the electrical supply until the plumbing has been completed.

 

[onions1066]

Spinlondon spin on this lol rrr:

Just for interest I contacted Mira this morning asking them about their views on RCD protection with showers. I used the extract Spin (I think) posted from a Mira product guide. It seems that their view is that an RCD must be used

Read more: http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...69843-replacement-shower-5.html#ixzz2H1ME8P4L

- - - Updated - - -

Thanks richy3333 for previous post

 

[Paul.M]

It would be interesting to find out what their expert opinion would be for a like for like replacement and not a new install?

I remember reading a best practice guild on this matter or on the ESC web site and that said for a like for like shower replacement an rcd dose not have to be fitted but it would be advisable to do so. I would never do a shower change without installing a rcd or rcbo and I''m sure all of us on here would do the same. If the customer wont pay for it then just walk away from the quote.