spuring if a ring

[nicsin02]

Having a debate regarding spurs from a ring circuit, my lecturer at my 2391 course a few year back claimed that it was ok to have 1 spur per socket in a ring circuit, I know it ain't good practise but I can't find anything in regs book to confirm or deny point, any help much appreciated, cheers

 

[SPARTYKUS]

I see what you're saying Archy, as in, it also doesn't include a picture of a ring in 4.0mm2 but there baint be owt wrong with doing it if you see fit?

 

[Octopus]

You're all wrong!

Appendix 15 is only 'Informative'.
Which implies you could wire an RFC and spur off it, in any way you want.
The diagrams are preferable ways of wiring an RFC to ensure it complies with 433.1

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!

Just when the thread had got some positve views from the consensus!

 

[Andy78]

I saw a socket circuit today.
A radial wired in 2.5mm T+E.
OCPD was a 32A MCB
One double outlet on the circuit.

What does everyone (especially the OP) make of that ? :aureola:

 

[Pete999]

I saw a socket circuit today.
A radial wired in 2.5mm T+E.
OCPD was a 32A MCB
One double outlet on the circuit.

What does everyone (especially the OP) make of that ? :aureola:

Was it installed by a short course wallah

 

[Andy78]

Was it installed by a short course wallah

Possibly, but looked more DIY... hard to tell I thought it pertinent to the debate though.

 

[Octopus]

It was a spare MCB that a numptie used?

 

[Andy78]

It was a spare MCB that a numptie used?

This is also possible.. there were other unused breakers in there used as blanks.

Not really my angle though... how does everyone feel about this circuit arrangement with regards to the regulations and safety issues ?

 

[Octopus]

This is also possible.. there were other unused breakers in there used as blanks.

Not really my angle though... how does everyone feel about this circuit arrangement with regards to the regulations and safety issues ?

On an EICR it would be a C2, on a CU change I would add a comment about recommending improvement, if noticed while on site ding other work, I would note on the invoice!

As for the regs, it doesn't comply!

 

[Pete999]

This is also possible.. there were other unused breakers in there used as blanks.

Not really my angle though... how does everyone feel about this circuit arrangement with regards to the regulations and safety issues ?

4mm would have been my choice with an OCPD of 32 Amps, does not comply with the regs, if BG had seen it that would be a complete rewire wouldn't it?

 

[Deleted member 9648]

Ashamed to admit I remember the 14th edition, when it was a regulation that the number of unfused spurs must not exceed the number of sockets on the ring,that one seems to have disappeared at some point,not sure when. But it sticks in the mind of many old school sparks.

 

[7029 dave]

Ashamed to admit I remember the 14th edition, when it was a regulation that the number of unfused spurs must not exceed the number of sockets on the ring,that one seems to have disappeared at some point,not sure when. But it sticks in the mind of many old school sparks.

Yes, I remember that.

 

[Andy78]

On an EICR it would be a C2, on a CU change I would add a comment about recommending improvement, if noticed while on site ding other work, I would note on the invoice!

As for the regs, it doesn't comply!

4mm would have been my choice with an OCPD of 32 Amps

Oh I know how I would have installed it. I just thought I would offer this arrangement up for debate against a 2.5mm spur from a 32A ring serving a double outlet.... be it spurred from a socket on the ring or directly from the MCB...

I'm off on a callout now so won't be on for chat for a bit....

 

[chris murphy]

"Hello All",

Please don`t take offence to this - I am genuinely interested in the answer:

I have never been able to understand why a `Spur` Socket is connected to one cable run from a junction box which has been cut into the cable of a Ring Circuit - surely it cannot just be to save another junction box and a length of cable ?

Quite a few Years ago I did used to do some of my own Heating Controls wiring [1990`s] and when I was having to install a Socket for this [Plug out = all Heating Controls wiring `Dead` Specification] I used to cut into the Ring Circuit and use 2 Junction boxes - `extending the Ring` by running the 2 new sections of cable to Socket and connecting each end to the Junction boxes.

No-one taught Me to do this - I thought that it was just common sense to NOT run just one `Spur` cable to a Socket when I could `extend the Ring Circuit`.

I do realise that there would have been absolutely no reason not to just run one cable to a Socket for supplying Heating Controls as there would not be any great `Demand`on the Socket / Cable.

But this question has intrigued me for ANY `Spur` Socket - some would obviously be having things like 3 KW Heaters plugged into them - although I know that the single 2.5 T&E cable would obviously handle that demand.

This would have been back in the 1990`s and before I carried out the Heating Controls wiring I had taken ACOPS Courses and Assessments on `Essential Electrics` including `Electrical Safety` - `Electrical Installation for Mechanical Services` and `Heating Controls Wiring` - so I was not a `DIY`er` on basic Electrical works.

Please don`t think that I am suggesting that these are `Electrical Qualifications` - they were available to people like Me - a Heating Engineer / Gas Engineer as Electrical Courses associated with my Trades and at that time I wanted to be able to work Safely on Electrical Installations for Heating Controls so I paid to take the ACOPS Courses and Assessments which were not inexpensive.

When an Electrician was available / working on Jobs where I was installing Central Heating I always wanted them to do my Controls wiring - on a lot of jobs the entire Electrical System had to be Certificated for the Clients records [Housing Associations and similar] so obviously the Heating Controls had to be done by the Electrical Contractor / Electrician to be included in the Certificate.


I know that I will probably be castigated for this - But I really would like to know why a `Spur` Socket would ever be appropriate - unless there are circumstances where only one cable could be run to the Socket [If that could ever be claimed / justified ?].

I have asked Electricians about this over the Years but I have never been given an answer that seemed convincing - I do realise that `There is no need to extend the Ring Circuit` may be the answer that I will get but is that really it ?

The information about Me taking the ACOPS Courses above is intended to `soften the blows` from Members who dislike the idea of a Heating Engineer carrying out their own wiring - it was in the 1990`s and I had sometimes either had difficulty in getting an Electrician on the Day that I needed them for my own Heating & Plumbing Jobs - or some Electricians `did not do Heating wiring` or the Electricians wanted ridiculous Prices to do the Controls wiring.

I have never wanted to carry out Electrical work - `Every Man to his own Trade` - I prefer to use the Professionals which is exactly what I did whenever the opportunity presented itself - and since about 2005 [Part P introduced ?] I have always used an Electrician for my Heating Systems Controls etc.

Regards,

Chris

 

[ipf]

Hi Chris. With a spur from a ring final circuit, current is limited by the plug fuses....hence a maximum of one double socket or, as we were taught 14th edition wise, two singles.

 

[chris murphy]

Hi Chris. With a spur from a ring final circuit, current is limited by the plug fuses....hence a maximum of one double socket or, as we were taught 14th edition wise, two singles.

"Hello ipf",

Thanks for your reply.

What I wanted to know is why a Spur Socket is supplied by just one cable from a Junction box cut into the Ring Circuit and not as I described an extension of the Ring Circuit by using 2 Junction boxes and running 2 lengths of cable `in and out` of the Socket Outlet to complete the Ring Circuit ?

Another example of something that I could have written / asked about in ONE Paragraph - unlike my message above !

Regards,

Chris