63 Amp Isolator

[Redvanman]

I'm running a 63A supply for a cooker and need to have a local isolator.
Apart from having a 63A main switch in a small enclosure, is there any thing else I could use which is discreet to put in the back of a cupboard.

Thanks

 

[Engineer54]

The fire angle might benefit from a wall isolator, if there was an oil fire I'm sure the homeowner would appreciate a means of complete isolation from a single point. Between that and the benefit of 2-pole isolation to isolate a shared RCD tripping fault plus possibly manufacturers instructions requiring one (even future requirement if stove is replaced) I'd say there was sufficient grounds to install one as a matter of course even if the regs don't specifically state it. On the flip side I'd also say you couldn't code an installation that didn't have one.

At last, someone applying logic and a bit of commonsense, instead of trying to use the Reg's as an argument for or against the provision of a means of local isolation.


Leaving out the provision of a means of local isolation to a cooker, is about as senseless as mounting a CCU in the back of a kitchen cabinet that you can't easily get access too!!

 

[GLENNSPARK]

At last, someone applying logic and a bit of commonsense, instead of trying to use the Reg's as an argument for or against the provision of a means of local isolation.


Leaving out the provision of a means of local isolation to a cooker, is about as senseless as mounting a CCU in the back of a kitchen cabinet that you can't easily get access too!!

exactly....
common sense to prevail.....

 

[DPG]

Regs or not, if someone installed a cooker circuit for me and didn't give me an cooker isolator on the end of it I'd want to know why. Same for a shower. Seems a bit amateur to go straight from the single pole MCB to the device being powered. Could also be dangerous if the cooker needs isolating due to emergency/fire/overheating/fault/whatever and the homeowner has to go to the cupboard under the stairs, empty all the crap out to find the consumer unit and then flick every switch off till they get the right one. Which then also plunges the house into darkness and they trip over something. Maybe a bit exagerrated but you get the point. Daz

 

[44ALLAN]

Agreed.................heaven forbid there's an emergency on the sockets or the lights then....................lol

 

[Amp David]

More probably be within the manufacturers install instructions regards isolation requirements. BGB advises to follow these.

Must be one big cooking appliance too!

 

[Guitarist]

Regulatory speaking, the same applies to showers as it does to cookers. No local isolation is 'needed'. Bathroom fans, haha, well, that's a whole other topic! My feelings surrounding this subject are well known! Lol. If you care to look and learn a little then by all means have a read of this:

http://www.electriciansforums.net/e...3-pole-isolation-source-much-controversy.html

Now, all the showers I've fitted recently definitely state DP isolation.

 

[D Skelton]

At last, someone applying logic and a bit of commonsense, instead of trying to use the Reg's as an argument for or against the provision of a means of local isolation.

Logic and reason are completely subjective depending on the situation. Logic and reason would dictate that it would be silly to install a cooker isolator if the DB was mounted on the opposite wall of the kitchen for example. I have stated again and again through this thread that DEPENDING on the situation, best practice will be subject to change.

Leaving out the provision of a means of local isolation to a cooker, is about as senseless as mounting a CCU in the back of a kitchen cabinet that you can't easily get access too!!

And that is your personal opinion, which you are entiltled to, but it is no more than opinion.

 

[Redvanman]

More probably be within the manufacturers install instructions regards isolation requirements. BGB advises to follow these.

Must be one big cooking appliance too!

Range cooker 14kw but they are looking at a 17kw one.
they both have induction hobs built in

 

[Amp David]

I'd apply a little diversity to the ovens at least.

If you don't then if they get a 17kw version you 63amp is still undersized

 

[DPG]

Agreed.................heaven forbid there's an emergency on the sockets or the lights then....................lol

Sockets already have a means of local isolation, it's the switch! Or if it isn't switched then you pull the plug out. Out of interest would you not fit an above-counter isolating switch for a hidden socket in a kitchen?

 

[44ALLAN]

Sockets already have a means of local isolation, it's the switch! Or if it isn't switched then you pull the plug out. Out of interest would you not fit an above-counter isolating switch for a hidden socket in a kitchen?

Ovens have switches too mate

I fit a local Isolator for everything I do but mine are normally 3 phase machines and motors.
Kitchen electrics are too complicated for me with all that plastic pipe and cupboards and stuff..........rings/radials/lollipops......gawd what's all that lot about eh !!

 

[Engineer54]

Logic and reason are completely subjective depending on the situation. Logic and reason would dictate that it would be silly to install a cooker isolator if the DB was mounted on the opposite wall of the kitchen for example. I have stated again and again through this thread that DEPENDING on the situation, best practice will be subject to change.



And that is your personal opinion, which you are entitled to, but it is no more than opinion.

You can call it all, whatever you like, if nothing else, i'd call it prudent to provide a means of local DP isolation to any heating/cooker appliance that can be rated anywhere up to 17 KW!! What having a DB/CU in the same room has to do with not providing local isolation, I don't know. If anything it could cause more of a problem, if in the case of an oil fire or some other catastrophe, with house holders /tenants just switching the main isolator...


It amazes me that people will argue like mad to provide the lowest possible denominator to an installation, all on the say so, of of what's written in the Reg's, or more often than not, What ISN'T written in the Reg's!!!



But it's a damned good opinion, and makes far more sense than what you're promoting!!!

 

[Engineer54]

Range cooker 14kw but they are looking at a 17kw one.
they both have induction hobs built in

The 14KW range cooker won't need a 63A isolator, and nor will the 17KW one either!

If you see more than 40A for any length of time ,on that 17KW cooker i'll eat my hat.
So what's so different about induction hobs, as far as diversity is concerned then??

 

[Amp David]

The 14KW range cooker won't need a 63A isolator, and nor will the 17KW one either!

If you see more than 40A for any length of time ,on that 17KW cooker i'll eat my hat.
So what's so different about induction hobs, as far as diversity is concerned then??

Thank Christ, thought i was on my own planet for a while.

 

[Silly Sausage]

So what's so different about induction hobs, as far as diversity is concerned then??

Am I right in thinking that the good thing with Indy hobs is that (virtually) all the energy goes into the pan?
So presumably, they would never be run at max.

 

[Engineer54]

Am I right in thinking that the good thing with Indy hobs is that (virtually) all the energy goes into the pan?
So presumably, they would never be run at max.

That's right they induce the heat into the cooking utensil/pan, not the surrounding glass or element. These hobs are so fast, that they can cook a fried egg to perfection before a conventional halogen hob has even started to turn the egg white, White!! They do hit max quite often, but are still subject to thermostatic control. Just everything happens that much faster!! lol!!

I'd never swop back to a gas hob now. Never had an electric hob, they were and still are totally uncontrollable, and remain hot enough to burn you for a good hour or so, after you have finished cooking. ...total waste of energy!!

 

[Richard Burns]

I think a 17kW cooker could probably be run on a 40/45A breaker with possibly 10mm cable (would like 16mm but think of the wiring problems and probably overkill) then you could use a 50A cooker isolator with no problems.
(If you were going to fit an isolator!!)
If the speed is the thing as from E54 then makes it even less likely to trip.

 

[D Skelton]

But it's a damned good opinion, and makes far more sense than what you're promoting!!!

I haven't promoted anything mate. My first response was purely correcting the OP. Since then I have provided nothing but factual information.

I haven't told RVM 'not' to fit an isolator, I just told him that he doesn't 'need' to fit one. He can make his own mind up I assume. My 'opinion' on this matter is worthless as it's the OP's job, not mine.

Finally, purely for the hell of it, I shall tell you that the last 'cooker' I installed was one of many going into a commercial kitchen, each item of equipment on it's own circuit, each with it's own TP plug and socket outlet and each with its own local isolation. Proof enough that my 'argument' so to speak isn't based on the work that I do or don't do but based purely on regulatory requirements.

 

[Geoffsd]

i7,000 / 240 = 70.83A - 10 x 0.3 +10 = 28.25A

 

[SirKit Breaker]

There is some bumph somewhere in OSG or whatever, and it says something along the lines of "A means of isolation within 1 metre of the appliance". I remember reading it when i put my oven in a few years ago.

Cheers...............Howard

 

[daveb1]

A interesting debate but found one quote from D Skelton hilarious, with reference to (some block head).

Also opened my eyes to getting caught up in just doing some thing because i look at it as normal practise when sometimes i could use different methods

Thanks Dave

 

[Badged01]

An interesting thread of varied opinions which confirms to me ........ "rules are for fools or the guidance of wise men"

Each one of us can decide where we fit .........

 

[Engineer54]

I haven't promoted anything mate. My first response was purely correcting the OP. Since then I have provided nothing but factual information.

I haven't told RVM 'not' to fit an isolator, I just told him that he doesn't 'need' to fit one. He can make his own mind up I assume. My 'opinion' on this matter is worthless as it's the OP's job, not mine.

Finally, purely for the hell of it, I shall tell you that the last 'cooker' I installed was one of many going into a commercial kitchen, each item of equipment on it's own circuit, each with it's own TP plug and socket outlet and each with its own local isolation. Proof enough that my 'argument' so to speak isn't based on the work that I do or don't do but based purely on regulatory requirements.

Why not just of let it go much earlier on then, you had made you point!! Instead you've been actively trying to support the stand, on a cooker not requiring any form of local isolator. You may well have been giving ''factual'' information, but that information is based on the general inadequacies that abounds within BS7671, ...it's the very nature of what happens when you have codes, standards, and regulations books.

 

[D Skelton]

Why not just of let it go much earlier on then

Because no one would have it. People continually trying to prove me wrong. Caught hook, line and sinker you might say but at the end of the day my first response was correct and if I'm honest, I rather enjoyed watching people trying and failing to find regulations to show me up

Nowt wrong with a bit of controversy!

 

[Marvo]

Nowt wrong with a bit of controversy!

Hmmm, controversy or trolling? You say tomato I say tomaato