Consumer unit fire - advice please

[Groundhog]

Thanks everyone. I will keep you posted :frown2:

 

[Knobhead]

Had there been a fire there would be forensic evidence. Have we seen any?

If this ever gets to court I’ll be amazed. The insurance companies will shake hands and settle.

BUT only if the OP has that insurance.

 

[Geordie Spark]

If you have done everything as far as reasonably practicable to ensure that the terminals where tight when you left the board and sealed it up then the claim would not be on you.
How can you be responsible for something that you where directly not involved with - i.e. loosening the screws!
If the screw has worked its way loose over time then GOD HELP US ALL! and it is not by any means our fault! (nor yours!)
Your insurance company will be doing everything possible to pass the buck from you over to protus, this can be done by simply checking the tightness of the other screws in the board! - once this has been passed over to Protus then its not your problem anymore! and the blame does not fall on you.

Like has been said above let the legal team sort it out.

I can see it coming where we are expected to tighten all terminals with a torque wrench to ensure terminals are tight enough but before that happens the terminals will either have to have hex heads or alen key heads.

Good Luck mate!

And that's the problem.

I come from an engineering background. My "proper" trade is Precision Engineer and I have long thought that the screws used in electrical terminals - especially Consumer Units - are not of the quality that they should be.

For a start, they are what we in engineering would call "****y slack" in the tapped holes and secondly the heads are generally badly formed and the material they are made from is too soft. Also, there is far too much variation in the type of head we have a mixture of Phillips, Pozi and slotted.

Many years ago, a great man by the name of Joseph Whitworth single-handedly "invented" British Standards. It was he who laid-down the specification for British Standard screw threads and determined exactly what should be considered to be a flat surface by his simple invention of the Surface Plate.

I think if he could see the shambles that sparks have to deal with nowadays he would be apoplectic.

 

[Knobhead]

Come on Geordie, this lot wouldn’t know an 8’s wood screw from a machine screw! Never mind what thread it is!


BTW everyone, Geordie and I come from very similar backgrounds.

In my mind you can’t be an electrician unless you have an understanding of mechanics.

 

[Geordie Spark]

Come on Geordie, this lot wouldn’t know an 8’s wood screw from a machine screw! Never mind what thread it is!


BTW everyone, Geordie and I come from very similar backgrounds.

In my mind you can’t be an electrician unless you have an understanding of mechanics.

Well the fact of the matter is when I was a small boy I wanted to be an engine driver, but realised that the steam locomotives that I loved were being replaced by diesels that I didn't so then wanted to be an electrician, but my Dad said a wasn't clever enough for that.

He was a Fitter & Turner of the "old school" and could do almost anything with a lathe, hacksaw, file and hammer & chisel and completely rebuilt a small lathe that he bought and made a drilling & milling machine from scratch and installed the whole lot in our shed. That got me started with model engineering at age 12 and that led to me being offered an apprenticeship at age 14 which I started at 15 and finished when I was 21.

During this time, it was told often to me that a good engineer can turn his hand to anything and so it was that several years later, and via a very convoluted route, I became a spark.

Somewhere along the way, I also managed to achieve my ambition to be an engine driver on a preserved railway and have driven both steam and diesel, but I much prefer steam.

I think I've achieved most of my life's ambitions with only two left: One is to get my 3 litre V6 Toyota MR2 back on the road before I'm too old to climb in & out of it and the other is to live in a little cottage maybe somewhere in Wales with a certain gorgeous pikey lady. She wants it with roses around the front door and chickens in the back garden and a Pikeywaggen (that's a motor home) for us to travel about in and what this lady wants she usually gets!!

 

[Hundleton1]

The problem with insurance companies is they are always looking someone to blame, sometimes things just happen, wires come loose, parts fail.

Don't get to involved with it, as has been said tell your insurance company you accept no liability and suggest it may be a manufacturing issue and let them fight it out.

Its very easy to get involved and feel sorry for the victim but its not worth it you will just open your self up to further problems.


As for the other ones you fitted of that make if you have details it would do no harm to pick 3 and do a free inspection, will cost you half a day and put your mind ease, should you do find the same potential issue you can then go to the manufacture with it.

 

[dan86]

Christ, imagine if he picked 3 at random, did an inspection and only One of them also had a fire! talk about bad luck!

 

[Guitarist]

This is why Electrical Engineers (of which there are a few of us here) underwent a mechanical as well as electrical apprenticeship. I often have to replace MCB's because the numpty who installed them used the wrong screwdriver and the head is completely shot. Is it too much to ask for our fellow electricians to know the difference between a philips and a pozi head???
Regarding differences, my favourite is the difference between a bolt and a machine screw. Hardly any understand that one.

 

[EastAnglian]

When I attended a briefing about the revisions to BS7671:2008 we were warned specifically about this behaviour from the insurance industry. It was in relation to that small and almost innocuous phrase "fitted in accordance with manufacturers' instructions". As Consumer Units and RCDs etc are supplied with information on specific torque settings for screws we were strongly advised to use a torque screwdriver when installing DBs, otherwise how else can you be certain you are complying with the manufacturers requirements.

Apparently insurance companies have been seizing this opportunity to claim that a consumer unit was not fitted correctly where it has been highlighted as the cause of a fire, thereby nullifying the householder's claim. The householder, of course, then tries to seek re-dress from the installer.

All the earlier advice about saying nothing and referring this directly to your insurer is exactly right, and I would support the view that you have a strong case for saying that from a professional perspective you have done everything you can to make this installation safe, including checking screws are tight. Of course, if you do have a torque screw driver and can demonstrate somehow that you use it regularly on DB installs this will strengthen your case.

I also agree with the other comments on the poor quality of screws in DBs. I find that sometimes I will round off a screw-head before it has reached the necessary torque, and then I have to raid a 'spare' one from an unused terminal.

Good luck, and stay positive.

 

[SKY]

MK used to be the gold standard for DBs but recently they have become very poor with soft connections.
Legrand also used to be good but I have noticed a change.

I like Hager as their boards are good with strong connections but the case is very thin and distorts very easily on a slight out of true wall (like most).

I'm currently preferring crabtree starbreaker (I love the push in busbar) or I use Wylex on a budget.

 

[Geordie Spark]

This is why Electrical Engineers (of which there are a few of us here) underwent a mechanical as well as electrical apprenticeship. I often have to replace MCB's because the numpty who installed them used the wrong screwdriver and the head is completely shot. Is it too much to ask for our fellow electricians to know the difference between a philips and a pozi head???
Regarding differences, my favourite is the difference between a bolt and a machine screw. Hardly any understand that one.

I agree with you, but WHY does there have to be confusion in the first place?

IF there was a standard type of screw / head then the "electrician" would not have to carry umpteen different screwdrivers. As things stand, we have the plus/minus things in Phillips and Pozi - two sizes of each - that's four screwdrivers, then there's the straight slotted type - again two screwdrivers - one large one small, two sizes of Phillips and two sizes of Pozi type fits all. Unless my arithmetic is wrong, that makes a total of TEN screwdrivers to cart about and probably lose on a job!!

It's absolute madness!!

As for the difference between the bolt and machine screw, I DO know the difference!! One of my jobs was making special-purpose bolts and screws for the M O D

But to get back on topic; I'm very sympathetic to our Friend the OP who is beating himself up over something that shouldn't have happened but unfortunately did and may or may not have been his fault (I prefer to think it wasn't / isn't his fault) and would suggest that he stops worrying about it because it really doesn't help anyone.

Leave it in the hands of the insurance people and let them stress over it - it's what they're paid to do!!

 

[Groundhog]

Thanks guys again - your comments help because I can assure you this is a crap thing to go through. Even though I have PIL and they are dealing with it you can't but help go over and over it endlessly which in the end helps no one. Plus of course as I have said I haven't been near this place for 2 years and I have done loads of jobs since then so I can't remember everything but I do know how I work and I know I tightened everything. But as You all know if I was the last electrican there then it's my problem. Thanks again - great help.

 

[EastAnglian]

Groundhog, some genuine advice, based on personal experience ...... if its keeping you awake at night and bugs you during the day don't discount professional help to get it into perspective. Your GP can help direct you.

Some years ago I wish somebody had told me this earlier than I discovered it for myself!

 

[EastAnglian]

I'm currently preferring crabtree starbreaker (I love the push in busbar) or I use Wylex on a budget.

100% agree, that has been my staple offering for a while.

However, I've been quite impressed with some English Electric boards which I got at a decent 'sale' price from Screwfix just to try them out. I installed one in my own extension first (the 'eat your own dog food' principle) and it was nice to work with.

 

[Knobhead]

You can beat yourself up about this forever and day. It’s your insurance company’s problem, not yours.

Put it behind you. But learn from it, these always someone trying to screw you.

For what it’s worth one of the subjects I had to study was test methods and reliability. Have a look on the net for the “Bathtub Theorem” and “Mean Time between Failure”.
Things do fail, it’s a fact of life!