Do I need a torque screwdriver set?

[catdog1121]

I am extremely confident fitting an mcb without a torque screwdriver. Extremely confident. As for the non compliance unless your an incompetent idiot who can't tighten a terminal screw or tightens it to the point it splits the breaker it's not an issue. Starting out as an apprentice he most certainly does not need a torque screwdriver yet.

Well done, the problem is still some muppet comes in after you and does not tighten it properly afterwards, this causes a fire in which the whole family die, it is found the fire was due to a lose connection, using building compliance certificate it is found that you recently installed the consumer unit..

You end up in the dock and the first thing they ask is "Do you have a torque screw driver"... Your answer is "No".... They show you the big blue book and ask "Do you know what this is?" You reply "Well yes its BS7671 18th edition"... They ask did you comply with BS7671 when installing the consumer unit?"... You reply "Well obviously yes"... They then ask "So how did you achieve the correct torque settings required by the manufacturer which is also part of BS7671 installing equipment to manufacturers instructions?"

You are going to rely on "Its alright judge I am extremely confident, I dont need to comply with BS7671 cause im not a complete idiot who cant tighten a terminal screw correctly, it must have been someone else after me."

My point is even if you have actually done a good job, the fact that you cant show you complied with BS7671 could get you in trouble..

I am not saying its the first tool an apprentice needs but as soon as they are fully qualified and the buck is stopping with them then I would say yes it is important just to cover yourself.

I have to say it is amazing how tight 2.5nm actually is and I bet you would be surprised how far off you actually are, and how inconsistent you are, I don't care who you are how long you have been doing it you cannot get the correct torque setting using your arm alone and as its basically now a requirement of BS7671 if you are not using one you are not complying with BS7671, if your not complying with BS7671 then are you not really a bit of a cowboy? Honestly for the cost just buy one and you will be amazed how much more you need to tighten some of the terminals especially the higher range 2.5-3nm, you really have to hold on and crank it.

 

[PEG]

You might not need a torque screwdriver for day to day use, but I'd suggest you need one in your toolbox once you are completing jobs like consumer unit changes. So that you have the means to tighten terminals to manufacturer's specifications, even if you think you can do it accurately enough without.

Years ago, my college tutor told us of a court case, where an electrican was asked about the content of his toolbox, and it didn't include a torque screwdriver. He was then asked how me managed to tighten the terminals to the correct values. He had no defence. Don't recall the rest of the details (I think something caught fire).

Hi,i reckon that college tutor would struggle to provide the details of that case,to make his point....

Any electrician,could justifiably state,that his ability to know if the terminals were adequately tightened,was due to training,and experience.

Tracing the cause of a fire,to a possible loose terminal,is a reasonable expectation,pending investigation,but asserting that the reason for it,was initial incorrect torque,would be extremely tricky.

As we all know,terminals can become "less torqued",for many reasons,temperature,vibration.....even repeated switching of MCB's on a busbar with some movement in it.

I have many instances where the correct torque,has resulted in either a terminal which was not sufficiently tight....or one which sheared off,before the correct torque was reached ......a manufacturer's instruction,should never trump a qualified opinion.

I think many of these types of story,are intended as instructional rhetoric,with the good intention, being a lecture point....which i can half understand.

I would like to think,that if the electrician in the story,had said he used his torque screwdriver,and the using of it allowed his defence.....the opposing brief,in order to justify his 800 dabs an hour,then asked him ".....and of course,you know the torque was correct,because you have a current and regular calibration of this device...."

There are a lot of electricians out there,who terminate correctly and adequately,while a torque screwdriver sits in their tool bag,like the squeeky penguin,at the back of the shelf,on Toy Story

 

[MJPD29]

Well done, the problem is still some muppet comes in after you and does not tighten it properly afterwards, this causes a fire in which the whole family die, it is found the fire was due to a lose connection, using building compliance certificate it is found that you recently installed the consumer unit..

You end up in the dock and the first thing they ask is "Do you have a torque screw driver"... Your answer is "No".... They show you the big blue book and ask "Do you know what this is?" You reply "Well yes its BS7671 18th edition"... They ask did you comply with BS7671 when installing the consumer unit?"... You reply "Well obviously yes"... They then ask "So how did you achieve the correct torque settings required by the manufacturer which is also part of BS7671 installing equipment to manufacturers instructions?"

You are going to rely on "Its alright judge I am extremely confident, I dont need to comply with BS7671 cause im not a complete idiot who cant tighten a terminal screw correctly, it must have been someone else after me."

My point is even if you have actually done a good job, the fact that you cant show you complied with BS7671 could get you in trouble..

I am not saying its the first tool an apprentice needs but as soon as they are fully qualified and the buck is stopping with them then I would say yes it is important just to cover yourself.

I have to say it is amazing how tight 2.5nm actually is and I bet you would be surprised how far off you actually are, and how inconsistent you are, I don't care who you are how long you have been doing it you cannot get the correct torque setting using your arm alone and as its basically now a requirement of BS7671 if you are not using one you are not complying with BS7671, if your not complying with BS7671 then are you not really a bit of a cowboy? Honestly for the cost just buy one and you will be amazed how much more you need to tighten some of the terminals especially the higher range 2.5-3nm, you really have to hold on and crank it.

To summarise loosely, because i don't have a screwdriver families will die? Thank god I don't get involved in domestic work I'd be a mass murderer by this stage

 

[littlespark]

I don’t know if I opened a can of worms here, but @PEG has certainly emptied a sack of comma’s on his post.

Back to the original question.

Do you need a torque driver? No. Not at the stage you’re at.

 

[nicebutdim]

I am not saying its the first tool an apprentice needs but as soon as they are fully qualified and the buck is stopping with them then I would say yes it is important just to cover yourself.

First year apprentices shouldn't be working unsupervised and certainly not on DBs. As such it's fairly apparent that they won't need a torque screwdriver this early in their career.

 

[Dustydazzler]

You can pick up a Draper vde torque screwdriver set for about 70 quid on Amazon , so in reality if I were an apprentice I might be tempted to get a torque sooner or later.

 

[nicebutdim]

OP's question:

I've just started my training and am interested in what tools are essential when first starting out.

 

[littlespark]

Amazon are known to make mistakes. I ended up with two wiha torkies.

I sent the extra one back of course.

 

[catdog1121]

First year apprentices shouldn't be working unsupervised and certainly not on DBs. As such it's fairly apparent that they won't need a torque screwdriver this early in their career.

Um I think thats exactly what I said, I said as soon as they are fully qualified and the buck stops with them.. A fully qualified electrician that is responsible for their work is clearly not an apprentice..

 

[catdog1121]

To summarise loosely, because i don't have a screwdriver families will die? Thank god I don't get involved in domestic work I'd be a mass murderer by this stage

Wow totally missed the point.. Thats not what I said and the worst summary.. A better summary would be using a torque screw driver proves you complied with BS7671 which covers your --- in the event of a problem even it it was not your fault...

Your argument is the same as someone that can drive but does not have a driving license.. Why do they need a driving license, they can drive, they have not got into an accident so why do they need one?

 

[MJPD29]

Wow totally missed the point.. Thats not what I said and the worst summary.. A better summary would be using a torque screw driver proves you complied with BS7671 which covers your --- in the event of a problem even it it was not your fault...

Your argument is the same as someone that can drive but does not have a driving license.. Why do they need a driving license, they can drive, they have not got into an accident so why do they need one?

Ok mate your the man, I'll buy a torque screwdriver immediately for fear of what damage I will do with my screwdrivers.

 

[pc1966]

There are a couple of topics that seem to get more of a "conversation" here than any normal person would imagine is sane. Radial versus RFC is one, and torque screwdrivers another!

My own view is they make sense: partly for legal posterior-covering, and partly as I don't do enough work of this sort to get a feel for what is right over a large range of terminal settings. Historically it has been the small stuff I have done (13A terminals, DIN rail for 2.5mm/4mm size, etc) which is not too hard to learn what is sane and within a reasonable range, but for some MCB/RCD and so on the screwdriver torque is higher than I would every try. Part of that is for mechanical work I would not use a screwdriver bit at all as it feels so close to caming out, but I would use either an Allen screw, Torx, or hex nut for those sort of forces.

Now the experienced sparks on here have done an apprenticeship or similar, and spent a lifetime doing a good job so I get why they might feel put out by new guidance to do things differently or, more to the point, to spent £100 or so on something they have not needed for most of their career.

• So do I think experienced sparks need a torque screwdriver? Not really, but possibly for posterior-covering.
• Do I need one? Definitely, as I occasionally do stuff that must be right (high current MCB, tails and similar SWA fixing terminals) and lack the practice to get it right every time.
• Should a student get one? Eventually when they start doing CU or similar work that merits it.

 

[PEG]

I don’t know if I opened a can of worms here, but @PEG has certainly emptied a sack of comma’s on his post.

Back to the original question.

Do you need a torque driver? No. Not at the stage you’re at.

I apologise for my buckshot punctuation

A while ago,i was knocked unconcious,when my torque device slipped off a fastener,and i may still be recovering after coming out of a deep comma

 

[UNG]

That is much the same as garages have been for last 50+ years, most bolts/nuts are done by hand, but critical ones like cylinder head, water pump, driveshaft, etc, finished with a torque wrench.

Unlike many years ago on most modern vehicles you find quite a lot of bolts are stretch bolts that are torqued to a set limit and are finished with an angular torque value

 

[Steady Steve]

might have a couple of +/- spare. if i can find them you can have them cheap. I'm just outsideof Northwich, so easy pick upif I have them.

Yes, I'd be interested in your +/- thanks. If you still have them you'll have to let me know how we provide details to meet up. Appreciated