Moving A Socket A Few Feet

[NickD]

Client wants (indoor, domestic) socket moved a matter of a few feet, assuming cable is not to be buried in wall, would you say for regs compliance socket must be RCD protected? I know the answer is liable to be yes because it's adding a new socket and decommissioning the old, but just wanted to pick some more experienced brains. I'm aware if the cable isn't buried I could just install a socket with integral RCD if the client is willing. Realistically they may go for the cowboy installer who'll just move the socket and not even worry about RCDs. :sad:

 

[NickD]

moving 3ft to left. unless it's a very large radiator, can't that move a tad to the left?

He who pays the piper....

 

[ipf]

He who pays the piper....

........gets his pipes altered and his rad moved.

 

[jaypp]

He who pays the piper....

Just thinking if elderly and money's an issue it would be better than non compliant work, esp if TT

 

[Selfmade]

I have enough of a job persuading some of my customers to shell out to get actual dangerous faults fixed, let alone paying for safety devices that weren't even invented for most of their lives!

I was taught that it was preferable to work to the regs that were in force when the installation was installed - so if an RCD was not required when it was last rewired, then an RCD is not required now! Is this not the case? Of course I would alway advise that an RCD be fitted, but if I insisted on it I'd be sitting on a street with a paper cup in front of me by now.

I'm sorry if this seems blase, but it's a lot less blase than the "it's never given us any trouble" (actual quote), or the "please do what you were asked and stop fussing around the electrics that have been fine for the past 50 years" (what I can tell they are thinking!) that you are up against when you are "DIY Dan"'s unfortunate replacement.

P.S., I am in a bad mood because of a customer trying to haggle. I am not selling a second hand car for goodness sake!

 

[Darkwood]

Selfmade refer to my previous post ... any additions or alterations to a circuit will be required to meet current regulations regardless of what edition the previous was installed under, you may only discard the need to meet the 17th if you are not changing the circuit like just replacing a socket top.

Rcd's have been around over half a century but we have seen their gradual implementation over the last 15yrs, they are not fail safe or the end all option but whe they work they dramatically reduce the chance of death or injury and even fire prevention to some extent, if you were in the unfortunate scenario that you did some alterations leaving your work to a previous regulation ie.. no rcd cover in this case and a faulty appliance plugged into the socket you moved killed someone you have really got some serious explaining to do and maybe implicated as a key factor in the circumstances leading up to the accident. Ignorance unfortunately can't be used as a defense, its amazing how many sparks out there go around doing substandard work not realising the consequences of it if things go wrong.

You should not do any additions or alterations unless you are satisfied the earthing and bonding are sufficient to the property and all work you carry out meets current regulations.. its scary your not fully aware of this.

As for haggling customers - its common place you learn to spot the ones who will try thus you add a small % in the first place -your happy they are happy and you can once more feed the family.

 

[Selfmade]

Hi darkwood and thanks for your post

Selfmade refer to my previous post ... any additions or alterations to a circuit will be required to meet current regulations regardless of what edition the previous was installed under, you may only discard the need to meet the 17th if you are not changing the circuit like just replacing a socket top.

I'd be interested to know who or what is requiring this - as others have pointed out BS 7671 is non-statutory. I am aware it can help in defending a case, but that doesn't rule out a defence for work that doesn't comply.

Rcd's have been around over half a century but we have seen their gradual implementation over the last 15yrs, they are not fail safe or the end all option but whe they work they dramatically reduce the chance of death or injury and even fire prevention to some extent, if you were in the unfortunate scenario that you did some alterations leaving your work to a previous regulation ie.. no rcd cover in this case and a faulty appliance plugged into the socket you moved killed someone you have really got some serious explaining to do and maybe implicated as a key factor in the circumstances leading up to the accident. Ignorance unfortunately can't be used as a defense, its amazing how many sparks out there go around doing substandard work not realising the consequences of it if things go wrong.

I hadn't realised RCDs had been around so long. I'm certainly convinced by them myself! But many of the installations I get called to have pre-RCD CUs and the customers either can't or don't want to pay for RCD protection. As others have pointed it is safer to add that extra socket than leave the person using extensions and multi-way adaptors, or leave it to DIY Dan who will probably spur off a spur, not use earth slaving and goodness knows what else! In the scenario you describe, I can't see it as a key factor - if I hadn't added the hypothetical socket, the person would have plugged the faulty appliance into one of their other non-RCD protected sockets and got the fatal shock.

You should not do any additions or alterations unless you are satisfied the earthing and bonding are sufficient to the property and all work you carry out meets current regulations.. its scary your not fully aware of this.

I'm certainly well aware of the need for adequate earthing and bonding and would never do any alterations without ensuring this is in place.

I don't take doing non-compliant work lightly. But that has more to do with concern for others' safety than fear of litigation. Previous experience has not given me much respect for the legal system, though I DO respect the IET and other organisations like them.


Based on the mix of responses so far, I think this one's going to run and run!

As for haggling customers - its common place you learn to spot the ones who will try thus you add a small % in the first place -your happy they are happy and you can once more feed the family.

Thanks for this tip - I will certainly bare this in mind!

 

[Darkwood]

Hi darkwood and thanks for your post



I'd be interested to know who or what is requiring this - as others have pointed out BS 7671 is non-statutory. I am aware it can help in defending a case, but that doesn't rule out a defence for work that doesn't comply.

This is an old legal wrangle many bring up but its groundless as the recognised regulations to which we work to (BS7671) although it may hold a non-stat' title it has nothing to do with the fact that your legally immune to prosecution under it - far from it it is often used in court cases to show incompetence, lack of safety etc etc. The reason it is classed non-stat' is that it fails to cover all situations and you can make an informed excursion from following the regs as long as you can prove you have not compromised the safety and protection of the circuit and users... i have made a few detours myself in the passed and was given the nod from local Clark of Electrical works. If it was a statutory standard then the regulations be forced in situations they were not designed to cover. There's a lot of non-stat requirements we live under that would be used to throw your butt in jail if you were to breach them.



I hadn't realised RCDs had been around so long. I'm certainly convinced by them myself! But many of the installations I get called to have pre-RCD CUs and the customers either can't or don't want to pay for RCD protection. As others have pointed it is safer to add that extra socket than leave the person using extensions and multi-way adaptors, or leave it to DIY Dan who will probably spur off a spur, not use earth slaving and goodness knows what else! In the scenario you describe, I can't see it as a key factor - if I hadn't added the hypothetical socket, the person would have plugged the faulty appliance into one of their other non-RCD protected sockets and got the fatal shock.

If the customer opt's for DIY DAN (Not to be confused with Dan the admin ) then so be it that is not your concern and just a fact of life they have opted for the cheaper less safe option and the risk is at their feet...



I'm certainly well aware of the need for adequate earthing and bonding and would never do any alterations without ensuring this is in place.

I don't take doing non-compliant work lightly. But that has more to do with concern for others' safety than fear of litigation. Previous experience has not given me much respect for the legal system, though I DO respect the IET and other organisations like them.


Based on the mix of responses so far, I think this one's going to run and run!




Thanks for this tip - I will certainly bare this in mind!

If you are contemplating undertaking work to a previous/past regulation no matter how small you have to first think what if the worse case scenario happened how would I defend my actions and where will holding the 'BS7671 is not enforceable by law card' going to get me ---- nowhere; when someone is in hospital or in a grave... the standards are there for you to protect yourself from been held accountable, by following them you show your understanding and competence, by not following them you have to hold a strong proven argument for your circumstances that led you to make an excursion from the regulations.

The BS7671 may well be non-statutory but the fundamental basis of the regulations with regard to safety and protection of persons and property have legal grounding and can be used against you or to protect you from prosecution ... if you don't follow it then you are in a quagmire of legal accusation and you will not be insured for either as Im sure your insurance cover will require you to meet the current regulations on any work you do.

In the front of the BGB headed Introduction to the BS 7671 it clearly states ' The regulations apply to the design, erection and verification of electrical installations, also additions and alterations to existing installations.

Anyone playing the 'its not a statuary requirement' treads a thin line IMHO and plays a game of risk they may one day regret!

 

[MDJ]

So the Bashing I got from Biff yesterday was uncalled for then lol

 

[D Skelton]

So the Bashing I got from Biff yesterday was uncalled for then lol

Nope

 

[telectrix]

what's wrong with cutting a hole in the radiator? plumbers would do it to us if the situation was reversed.

 

[Darkwood]

Your one of three courts here:-

1-You always abide and apply the regs.
2-You normally abide but tend to bend the rules when you believe the situation suits you.-
3-You practice installation methods that would make any cowboy proud.

Only (1) will protect you from prosecution if that day ever did arise, (2) lets hope you can prove your innocence and (3) make sure you have soap on a rope 'I wouldn't want you dropping it'

As the dreaded is such a rare occasion in our vast populous many do become complacent to the risk... at the end of the day you know what court Im in on this but i think its like crossing the road - You have no statutory obligation to use the pelican crossing 10m away but if you get hit by a car the driver has a strong case if you dashed across at an uncontrolled road point when you were 10m away from the actual crossing.

 

[Geordie Spark]

a case of common sense prevailing here.

A rare commodity nowadays bordering on extinction.

 

[Geordie Spark]

what's wrong with cutting a hole in the radiator? plumbers would do it to us if the situation was reversed.

No problem at all as long as the hole is properly de burred and a watertight grommet fitted.

 

[telectrix]

watertight with a plumber around. you gotta be joking.

 

[Geordie Spark]

If you are contemplating undertaking work to a previous/past regulation no matter how small you have to first think what if the worse case scenario happened how would I defend my actions and where will holding the 'BS7671 is not enforceable by law card' going to get me ---- nowhere; when someone is in hospital or in a grave... the standards are there for you to protect yourself from been held accountable, by following them you show your understanding and competence, by not following them you have to hold a strong proven argument for your circumstances that led you to make an excursion from the regulations.

The BS7671 may well be non-statutory but the fundamental basis of the regulations with regard to safety and protection of persons and property have legal grounding and can be used against you or to protect you from prosecution ... if you don't follow it then you are in a quagmire of legal accusation and you will not be insured for either as Im sure your insurance cover will require you to meet the current regulations on any work you do.

In the front of the BGB headed Introduction to the BS 7671 it clearly states ' The regulations apply to the design, erection and verification of electrical installations, also additions and alterations to existing installations.

Anyone playing the 'its not a statuary requirement' treads a thin line IMHO and plays a game of risk they may one day regret!

Say sonny; is that colour pi$$ yellow or puke green??