Moving A Socket A Few Feet

[NickD]

Client wants (indoor, domestic) socket moved a matter of a few feet, assuming cable is not to be buried in wall, would you say for regs compliance socket must be RCD protected? I know the answer is liable to be yes because it's adding a new socket and decommissioning the old, but just wanted to pick some more experienced brains. I'm aware if the cable isn't buried I could just install a socket with integral RCD if the client is willing. Realistically they may go for the cowboy installer who'll just move the socket and not even worry about RCDs. :sad:

 

[telectrix]

cpc green/yellow. take your pick . he done that to stop colourblind sparks reading it.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Your one of three courts here:-

1-You always abide and apply the regs.
2-You normally abide but tend to bend the rules when you believe the situation suits you.-
3-You practice installation methods that would make any cowboy proud.

Only (1) will protect you from prosecution if that day ever did arise, (2) lets hope you can prove your innocence and (3) make sure you have soap on a rope 'I wouldn't want you dropping it'

As the dreaded is such a rare occasion in our vast populous many do become complacent to the risk... at the end of the day you know what court Im in on this but i think its like crossing the road - You have no statutory obligation to use the pelican crossing 10m away but if you get hit by a car the driver has a strong case if you dashed across at an uncontrolled road point when you were 10m away from the actual crossing.

Regarding 2 - if things go t1ts up the problem will be proving your competence to work outside of the regs - this is not taught in colleges and no exam tests you on it.
You are in effect assessing your own competence (something you may not be 'competent' to do)
There can always be things we don't know that we don't know (if you get my meaning).

Nobody (apart from the odd member on here) can ever criticise you for strictly adhering to the regs.

 

[Hawkmoon]

I think with this job (assuming cable run surface as in OP) then RCD socket - and if it's a 90 yr old paying out of her pension, you do it for pennies - everybody's happy.

 

[HandySparks]

- and if it's a 90 yr old paying out of her pension, you do it for pennies -

Not sure age comes into it. I've done jobs for some EXTREMELY rich pensioners.

 

[Hawkmoon]

Not sure age comes into it. I've done jobs for some EXTREMELY rich pensioners.

True, but you can usually tell the diff

 

[Darkwood]

Im more akin to dealing with health and safety because i design machine control systems and believe it or not its down to yourself to assess and categorise the risk assessment. This is all fine until the operator has an accident and you have to justify what you have built meets safety standards. We had a maintenance Engineer got his hand mangled in a machine and the first people they ring is the Engineer who designed the control system, on site we were just ask to answer a simple question- 'How can this happen in a modern control system'....

Our answer was that our control system meets all relevant design criteria and risk assessment and what we have here is a maintenance engineer over-riding E-stop safety systems then climbing on top of a Hopper and removing 20 bolts to see why the fan isn't sucking material through... well the pipe was blocked but the fan was on full and the silly sod put his hand in to pull some of the fibre out.

We were then asked why a limit switch wasn't fitted on the panel?

We explained again the safety system had be over-ridden, the panel is not actually a maintenance access hatch and was bolted down with 20+ bolts... had the Engineer followed safety procedure the fan motor could not have been running regardless of the deliberate act of removing the panel thus because he used a tool to access the panel and he over-rode the E-stop the what more can we do except over Engineer the safety system to prevent deliberate stupidity.

Thankyou for your time.. we were not contacted again regarding this incident and the factory got a huge fine, this is an insight to why regulations must be followed had i cut a corner regardless of the blokes stupidity i would be accountable by design and having a lot to answer for.

 

[stevethesparks]

If you are going to spend money on an RCD, then I would prefer to fit it at the origin of the circuit.
One RCD controlled socket amongst the remainder that are not just seems pointless to me, unless its bang next to the Garden door and they use it for a Lawnmower.

 

[ipf]

Im more akin to dealing with health and safety because i design machine control systems and believe it or not its down to yourself to assess and categorise the risk assessment. This is all fine until the operator has an accident and you have to justify what you have built meets safety standards. We had a maintenance Engineer got his hand mangled in a machine and the first people they ring is the Engineer who designed the control system, on site we were just ask to answer a simple question- 'How can this happen in a modern control system'....

Our answer was that our control system meets all relevant design criteria and risk assessment and what we have here is a maintenance engineer over-riding E-stop safety systems then climbing on top of a Hopper and removing 20 bolts to see why the fan isn't sucking material through... well the pipe was blocked but the fan was on full and the silly sod put his hand in to pull some of the fibre out.

We were then asked why a limit switch wasn't fitted on the panel?

We explained again the safety system had be over-ridden, the panel is not actually a maintenance access hatch and was bolted down with 20+ bolts... had the Engineer followed safety procedure the fan motor could not have been running regardless of the deliberate act of removing the panel thus because he used a tool to access the panel and he over-rode the E-stop the what more can we do except over Engineer the safety system to prevent deliberate stupidity.

Thankyou for your time.. we were not contacted again regarding this incident and the factory got a huge fine, this is an insight to why regulations must be followed had i cut a corner regardless of the blokes stupidity i would be accountable by design and having a lot to answer for.

Bet there were no rcd's involved. :wink5:

 

[NickD]

as others have pointed out BS 7671 is non-statutory. I am aware it can help in defending a case, but that doesn't rule out a defence for work that doesn't comply.

As a comparison, The Highway Code isn't statutory either, but it's the de facto standard everybody looks to to see whether you've got it right or not, and in practice if you've breached it you're ****ed.

 

[Delboybully]

I cant believe what I am reading here. Professional electricians DO NOT bury cables less than 50mm deep or install socket outlets without RCD protection, little old lady or not. If the customer cant afford it, then dont do the job. If you dont get the job then so be it, but sleep well safe in the knowledge that the jobs you do do are done correctly and safely.

This is from some respected members too. I suspect that if this was posted by someone who was not a respected member they would have been hung out to dry big time.

Leave this sort of work to the cowboys.

 

[D Skelton]

As a comparison, The Highway Code isn't statutory either, but it's the de facto standard everybody looks to to see whether you've got it right or not, and in practice if you've breached it you're ****ed.

Screw it, the buses can wait for me! I aint giving now way to no peasant wagon!

 

[Silly Sausage]

I cant believe what I am reading here. Professional electricians DO NOT bury cables less than 50mm deep or install socket outlets without RCD protection, little old lady or not. If the customer cant afford it, then dont do the job. If you dont get the job then so be it, but sleep well safe in the knowledge that the jobs you do do are done correctly and safely.

This is from some respected members too. I suspect that if this was posted by someone who was not a respected member they would have been hung out to dry big time.

Leave this sort of work to the cowboys.

It's why I posted the bit from the MWC on post 35, you'd be falsely signing.
The prosecution would be rubbing their hands with ecstatic joy with that kind of evidence!

 

[Badged01]

It's why I posted the bit from the MWC on post 35, you'd be falsely signing.
The prosecution would be rubbing their hands with ecstatic joy with that kind of evidence!

Aah, but the more cunning "electricians" dont leave any paperwork to incriminate themselves!

 

[Darkwood]

I cant believe what I am reading here. Professional electricians DO NOT bury cables less than 50mm deep or install socket outlets without RCD protection, little old lady or not. If the customer cant afford it, then dont do the job. If you dont get the job then so be it, but sleep well safe in the knowledge that the jobs you do do are done correctly and safely.

This is from some respected members too. I suspect that if this was posted by someone who was not a respected member they would have been hung out to dry big time.

Leave this sort of work to the cowboys.

I bury cables less than 50mm deep, its standard practice otherwise you would be less than 50mm on the other side of the wall or have destroy the brickwork. Also there are times when wiring sockets when you can omit rcd protection... your statement was bold and but incorrect, i get your drift but you expressed it totally wrong, think about what your writing when you have a little rant!

5/10 For effort.

 

[Badged01]

I suspect he means he does bury them less than 50mm deep but uses RCD's!